Waffen-SS divisions

Which SS-divisions would you rate the most capable in combat? Name three.
If I remember correctly, 2. SS-Panzerdivision Das Reich got most Knight's Crosses or Iron Crosses, don't remember, about 65 or so.

 

Any of Liebstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking, Nordland, Hilter Jungend or Charlemagne.

All equally impressive.

Perhaps even Frundsberg or Hohenstauffen.

 

Götz von Berlichingen, the 17th SS Panzergrenadiers, was quite an impressive force in Normandy and I believe it is the only significant SS division missing in your list.

As the best of the SS divisions I would name 1st, 2nd, 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions. Especially under the leadership of men such as Bittrich these divisions were capable of such remarkable feats as the defence of Arnhem by 9th and 10, severely depleted and exhausted...

 

Yes, I bet Hohenstauffen and Frundsberg divisions were appalled to see the sky full of British paras, dropping in to disrupt their rest/refitting period!!

Even though the German Divisions has come to Arnhem on the back of fierce fighting, they still probably outmatched the paras because of their (remaining) armour. The paras did well at Arnhem, holding out for about twice as long as planned - sadly the British Relief Armour didnt do well at all, and only covered half its intended distance in twice the allotted time period!!

I have visited Arnhem Bridge (now called John Frost Bridge, after the leader of the Paras)and also various buildings used by the paras and memorials etc. An interesting day out - recommended.

Has anyone seen "A bridge too far", the movie about this encounter?

 

Certainly! The Airborne Museum at Oosterbeek certainly isn't the worst I've seen, and it has two 17pdr guns on display!

John Frost, btw, was the commander of the 2nd Batallion of the 1st Parachute Brigade, the only unit to actually reach the Arnhem bridge and hold it for four days against strong German attacks.

Yup, and read the book, too. The latter is better since it is much more complete than the film (a short summary of the book).

 

post subject

I too have visited the Bridge at Arnhem quite a few years before Kilgore was born, and as an old RAC soldier I take offence at the thinly veiled slur against the relief armour not doing their job, especially from someone
who hasn't had a go at it, have a word with the Fife and Forfar Yeos they might not agree with you!

 

Re: post subject

Well, the incidents of them stopping for tea are numerous and infamous!

However, it is often overlooked that 'thanks' to Monty's failure to sieze the port of Antwerp and the Scheldt estuary, the German 15th Army was gradually moved into the area of Market-Garden and especially 245th Volksgrenadier division made the job quite hard on the armoured forces of XXX Corps. Also, certain ad-hoc German infantry and armour units offered much more resitance than could have been expected from them, and the presence of the 107th Panzer Regiment in the area didn't help much either as they were equipped with Panthers and determined to break the corridor!

 

Re: post subject

Hi Merlin
Im not sure if your comment about a slur was aimed at myself, but if so please be assured that my comment was not intended as a slur and certainly no offence was intended to anyone. I was only stating what I understand to have happened, based on what I have read etc. Please correct me if I have my facts wrong, I would not doubt for a minute that you as an old soldier as far more qualified on these matters than I. The armour didnt get there - fact - but this does not mean I in any way doubted the courage or dedication of the British tankers. They had many problems to contend with on their approach, not least the roads, which I understand were very poor, narrow and generally unsuited to an armoured column.
Again, apologies for any unintended offence I may have caused you.
K.

 

Re: post subject

LTCOL Frost, who commanded the para battalion at Arnhem bridge, certainly thought that XXX Corps had not done everything in their power to get through to his men. And I daresay that his men shared that opinion, too.

Still, it can be said that the Market/Gardfen plan was too flawed for anyone to bring it off successfully.

 

Re: post subject

The overall plan wasn't flawed, however, many mistakes at lower levels of cómmand contributed to the balls up. Personally i think the communications were the biggest problem, with god comms resuppling could have taken place and Frost could have lasted a little longer, giving 30 corps more time to reach them.

 

Ah, and old disagreement we have...

The Old Market Garden Topic

 

Without getting down tot he nitty gritty of every detail, here is a summary of market garden. Please tell me if I am wrong.

The British were not at full strenght, didn't have all the AT weaponary, that took off and were not resuplied. 30 corps were close by by the time that the Germans took them so although it was a defeat a small amount of time (with respect to the time the Brits were there) MAY have seen a successful conclusion.

 

By no means could 30th Corps have reached the 1st Airborne in just a day or two, since they were surrounded in the village of Oosterbeek 8 miles from the bridge and there was no suitable crossing where their front line reached the river; the place was under fire, and although 43rd Wessex division tried to cross, it failed because the river was under German fire at every point. The British armour would have had to capture the bridge, then move 8 miles through a built-up area occupied by SS troops who were by now recieving hefty reinforcements. All this time their supply column would be in danger, since the Germans were still threatening the Corridor at more than one point.

With the best of estimates it would have taken the 30th Corps at least three days and massive casualties to reach Oosterbeek.

 

I am not saying the timeline was accurate, however, the few who made it to the Bridge would have held out for longer if reinforced and/or re-supplied. So the point I am making is that if the radios had been upto the job then maybe the outcome MAY have been different. Monty made a plan, this is given to subordinates to work out the mior details then he approves it. He doesn't now everything about the entire operation, that is why he has junior commanders, that is why he asked 30 corps how long will it take you to get there, that is why he asked the paras how long can you hold out. The holding out was 4 days the movement was 2 days, this gives a little margin for error. As it turned out Frost held out for a week, without all men and re-supplies, these were things out of his control. I am not saying it is a good plan or a bad plan, but it was workable, it is just that too many things went wrong.

 

You have one thing wrong though. The paratroopers were dropped into the Netherlands on September 17th. Frost surrendered 2nd Battalion, 1st Parachute Brigade on September 20th. That's four days by my count, and at the same time 30th Corps was still fighting to capture the bridge of Nijmegen (which it did on the same day).

However, the rest of the division, which had failed to reach the bridge and was pushed back to an encirclement at Oosterbeek, held out for nine days until the final withdrawal of September 26th.

 

From

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... y_the_20th

Day 5, Thursday the 21st
Although hard pressed, things were looking up for Market Garden this morning. XXX Corps was across the Nijmegen bridge and less than an hour's drive from the ongoing battle at the foot on Arnhem bridge. But it was too late. Frost's force was down to two houses, a handful of men, and had used up every bullet they had. With a last radio message "out of ammo, god save the King", heard only by German radio intercept operators, his remaining force surrendered.


But near enough, had they been at a fuller strenght and ammo state .......

 

According to "A Bridge Too Far" the wounded were evacuated by the Germans as part of a truce in September 20th, and what remained was nothing but defiant but doomed stragglers. If the fight lasted till the morning of the 21st that is quite a feat but the British no longer held the bridge on the evening of the 20th.

By the way the radio message quoted only ended with those two lines, and they are remembered thus only by General Harzer, the commander of 9th SS Division Hohenstaufen.

 

I don't disagree, however, the point is although the objective wasn't realised it wasn't through Monty's fault.

His plan was workable, just problems occured which were outside his control. Of the numerous problems, only a few need not have happened for it to be a success.

You either agree or not, lets just leave it at that, or continue in another section.

 

Well, I disagree with a plan based on a 60-mile-long yet 10-meters-wide salient into enemy territory held only by light infantry "until relieved". I don't think this plan could have emerged from any kind of tactical mastermind and therefore I think Monty is not that.

But indeed let's take this to the topic I linked.

 

Back to the original question, I believe 6.SS-Nord was rather under rated. They really had the most success in Operation Nordwind. They had come a long way since the battle for Salla!