WW2-A PUPPET THEATRE?

Just read this article, and it does raise some interesting questions. Oil has been important for a long time, but can it be...? That Hitler, Mussolini and others were just puppets, and the league of three ruled this drama?? There are claims in articles that certain economical sources pushed Hitler to attack to the area of Baku for the oil! Could this be it?

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"The Big Three oil cartel, which controlled oil in the Persian Gulf and southeast Asia areas, wanted to gain control over the vast oil reserves in the southern part of the Soviet Union. They financed the fascist regimes in Germany, Italy, and Japan with the hope that they would invade and control Russia. The Oil Rulers planned to defeat the German, Italian, and Japanese regimes and take control of the oil reserves in the Soviet Union. The Rockefeller circle also planned to take control of Persian Gulf oil from the British-Persian Oil cartel and seize control of southeast Asian oil from Royal Dutch Shell..."
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The site:

http://www.hermes-press.com/impintro1.htm

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I am intentionally exaggerating this but maybe the big thing was the oil war and Hitler´s ideas just a small act to bring profit to the "the Big three" ?? What a horrible idea.And yet not impossible.
By this ideology " the Big Three" killed 40 miilion people in WW2, Barbarossa was invented elsewhere than in Hitler´s HQ, Pearl Harbor happened because of their greed...

And most of all, it is still happening...God, are we being misled by thoughts of clashes between communism and nazism when it was in the end for the oil businez...

Thoughts, Gentlemen?

 

You're beginning to sound like KT. I wonder if its contagious. If it is, no doubt I'll be spreading the it's-all-a-conspiracy message to the world.

If Hitler didn't attack the Caucasus for its oil then for what else? Of course oil was (and is) a vital resource of war. If you're going to wage war then you need a steady supply of it. Even in peace you need a steady supply of it otherwise everything stops. It's hardly surprising that so many things revolve around oil.

But oil still doesn't rule the world, despite ther being groups that think it does. I mean just look at this - suppose it was true and Hitler was pushed up and floated by some mysterious oil cartel which wanted him to conquer the world to gain more oil. Well suppose Hitler didn't want to? How many division has the oil cartel?

 

Nah, Andreas, like I said I was pushing the topic over the edge to get some reaction.But thanx for your opinion, do appreciate! Hopefully more is coming.Hearing other people´s opinions is what counts, not turning people to think like I do. And sometimes I even change my own mind on matters after hearing good excuses, no problem!

I have messages on the Caucasus attack on the Russian front part of the forum.For all the trouble they got some 70 barrels a day in January 1943. That was quite expensive oil, man!

As with many things it proves true here as well. The more you learn, you learn that there´s twice as much information you don´t know...

But just a thought of Shell sponsoring Hitler´s war does sound ...odd. But then again times were different then and this is now.Difficult!

 

The nonsense you get to read on the internet at times, it takes your breath away

[ 06 October 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

K-P:
You're treading on holy ground here; I'd be careful what you say. As I've mentioned in several other posts, the German economy was saved--not by Hitler--but by the financial reorganization put forward by the Dawes Plan (1924) and later, by the Young Plan (1929.) These were large multi-national banks which, basically, stepped in to control the German economy after it had fallen to pieces. Hitler and Hindenburg were both publicly opposed to this reorganization, stating that it took control of the country away from the German people. But, nevertheless, they went along with the proposals put forward by the large banks. Why was this?
Was the Dawes Plan a conspiracy? Was Hitler going along with a conspiracy by tacitly approving of the takeover? These are all just word games, of course. Hitler skyrocketed to attention--when? At the end of 1924--immediately after Germany accepted the Dawes Plan. Where did the Nazi Party receive their money in the early days? Prior to '24, they had nothing, and Hitler was no more than a loud-mouthed nut hanging around the beer halls. Follow the money and you'll get the answers.
Regarding oil, Germany was the only country during the war capable of synthesizing gasoline from coal. This was a crucial process which enabled the Germans to fight on for several years after their foreign sources had dried up. But, where did they get this patent? Only one company had secured the patent for the process: Standard Oil, and they leased it to Germany shortly before the war. The Americans did not have the ability to manufacture synthetic gasoline because Standard withheld the patent from them. (As a consolation prize, America was given the formula for synthetic rubber.) These corporations exist beyond the realm of nation-states; in fact, they control national economies.
China is rapidly becoming the world's #1 consumer of petroleum. Those who can supply this demand will become fabulously wealthy. 20 years ago, the huge cartel UNESCO proposed running a pipeline from the oil-rich Caspian Sea through Afganistan and Iran, where it could then be shipped east. The plan fell through because the area was too politically unstable. You figure out the rest.
I'll give the link you provided a look when I get the chance. Again, be careful what you post. Much of this goes against the strict historical precepts laid down by the Ballantine Books and American Heritage Library.
Regards,
The Knight

 

Thanx Knight, very interesting, indeed. I knew there were some bankers supporting Hitler but who else...Well, there´ll be no exact contacts so nothing can be proved.End of story.
Check the site. Quite an interesting story..

 

Hitler and Mussolini puppets ?? I think not. Well, Hitler anyway, Musso , nah, probably not.

Yes, the Nazi party did receive funds from industrialists etc. It did in the beginning and continued to do so throughout the war. The Party needed funds to operate and spread it's propaganda so naturally if someone offered them money they took it. Same as any modern political party does.

This doesn't mean that they were puppets of some Oil Cartel. I find it difficult to believe that Adolf would have listened to anyone regarding military objectives and the like. Half the time he didn't listen to his own Generals let alone some mysterious group of industrialists.

Of course I wouldn't be surprised if there were oil interests hoping to make profits from Germanies expansion. After all didn't certain American families make money from shipping materials such as coal, steel, armaments etc to Europe (including Germany) prior to the US declaration of war??

No, I think, as with any war, there is always someone in the background eager to make money from other peoples actions. Hell, during the Iran/Iraq war the French were making money from both sides selling weapons. Even in the Falklands war they sold Exocet missiles to the Argentinians.

No, WW2 was a war of ideoligies led by a few madmen intent on either ruling the world or destroying it.

 

KP:
You would be surprised at how much information is out there. Frank Sutton's Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler is a good book to get, as is Charles Higham's {i}Trading With the Enemy: The Nazi Money Plot.[/i]
By 1900, one man--J.P. Morgan--controlled America's railroads, steel industry (after buying out Carnegie) and had the most powerful banking syndicate. That's an enormous concentration of power. And Morgan wasn't even American: he was British! JPM was making a lot of money during WWI by sending boatloads of weapons to England. The problem was that the Germans started sinking a lot of them. The Germans knew which boats were carrying munitions and would even take ads out in the NY Times warning Americans not to travel on them. Our entry into the war was based on shipping losses from the U-Boat conflict--but the boats being sunk were the ones carrying weapons for Morgan!! The American gvmnt was not shipping boatloads of weapons to the British and the Germans were not sinking innocent American passenger ships. The American public was sold on the idea that the Germans were sinking our boats, when, in fact, they were not. Every major war is preceded by some money scam... you can count on it.
Respectfully submitted,
The Knight

 

Sniper:
Do you think that in 1924 the big banks just decided to throw billions of dollars willy-nilly into the German economy? They restructured the entire German economy. They consolidated producers of strategic materials, such as Krupp, into enormous cartels. They bought into these companies forming subsidiaries and merged with their banks. This was an enormous undertaking, and, as I said, Hitler and Hindenburg publicly opposed this. But, they let it happen. And they let it happen because they were part of the plan.
Edsel Ford was operating a factory in occupied France, producing tanks and trucks for the Germans. Look at the banking system. The British, American, German, and Swiss banks were all interlocked. All the major American industries had subsidiaries in Nazi Germany--and visa versa!
KT

 

Part of The Plan ? Maybe. Opportunists, definitely. As with all politicians seeking re-election/power. Throw enough money their way or into their local community/industry, and they will happily take advantage of any improvement whilst ignoring the dark side.

I have no doubt that certain industrial cartels had financial interests in the goings on in Germany and elsewhere. I still have my doubts whether they directly influenced Hitlers political and military ambitions.

Major industry is just as opportunistic as politicians when it comes to money.But I do agree that there was a connection between the Fascists and 'Money' in the overall scheme of things. How else was it so easy for stolen gold to be transferred into Swiss banks, when it was obvious to all an sundry where the gold was coming from?

Same thing is going on right now in the world.

____________________

"If possible honestly, if not, somehow, make money" - Horace 65 B.C.

"Lenin was right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society, than to debauch the currency" John Maynard Keynes, 1919

 

KP:
We talked briefly about this on the Barbarossa thread:
http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000375

 

I found in the net this, which has on chapter 7 all sums Hitler received in 1933.

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

Don´t know about any weird conspiracy stuff as MONEY is the thing that made these things happen.
"Who found who?" as Hitler was funded quite well at the time even from the US. Did they give money to other German politicians as well?

Nothing strange about that funding and dealing. Instead compared with Stalin there is no competition. Child´s play I say. Stalin used the country for his own purposes and killed anybody he was not fond of. As well starved one million Ukraine people to make money for his factories. Executed his Generals.

What do you think Churchill would have allowed to happen to get rid of USSR and communism, until he started fearing Nazi Germany? Quite alot, I suppose.

 

Talking about Big Boys´ monopoly businesses...

You know Sonera, the Finnish Telephone company, bought the UMTS rights over Germany for the cute price of some 4.3 billion dollars ( or Euros today is the same amount ) in an internet bidding "ceremony" in 2000. Anyway,it happens they do not have the technology as the deal is about to close and lose the money to Germany but get nothing back...Great stuff boys! The government owns over 50% of the company but the ministers tell they have nothing to do with it!At the moment nobody is actuallu sure who made the decision...
Just to make some comparison the sum is more than what we paid to Russia after WW2 for war debts. (The sum is made good for today´s money value ).

Just shows that the politicians are up to anything and don´t even bother to share it with people unless totally necessary. " It is not good for your health to know this...??" Right?



PS. The money went to the new train systems in Germany. I hope I´ll get to enjoy the ride one day, paid by Finnish tax payers...

 

Need a Finland icon...

No, no, no. Sonera is part of a supernational oil cartel that has the power to wreck all the world's economies at the push of a button. And this is a conspiracy to ruin Finland and make Germany strong again.

Actually the money was supposed to be used to pay back government debt (where it would be a drop out of a full barrel), but IMHO the Finns have only themselves to blame. If they sign such a contract then they shouldn't complain now.

 

I don't see at first glance how the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation fits into this but I'm sure there's a satisfactory explanation which you will no doubt supply.

 

Speaking of which, the Baku Puppet Theatre is doing Stalingrad at the Barbican next month. I'm going just to see Stalingrad done in puppetry...

Jumbo

 

A.S.
Ooops. Quite right.
The company's name is UNOCAL.

 

I don't think so. But oil moves the world, my friend.

That is why Mr. Bush wants to attack Iraq. Both, Hussein and Bush know about oil situation in the world. A friend of my grandfather works in PEMEX (Mexico's oil company) as researcher. With the actual explotation standars and reserves found until today the next countries will have oil until:

Venezuela: 2005
USA: 2008
Mexico: 2038
Russia: 2040
Great Britain: 2042
Norway: 2042
Saudi Arabia: 2100
Iraq: 2150

Sadam Hussein is only preparing his people and country to become the most powerful nation in the world in 150 years!!! Of course Mr. Bush wants to avoid it and have all that oil for the USA. Mass destruction weapons, terrorists? Yeah...

 

F :

Where do you come up with some of your ideas ?

We here in the US of A don't need Babylon or Persian oil, there is enough in Canada and Alaska to fill evyones needs here.....Bush is going after mid-eastern oil, cmon. I know the Soviets are and they are just waiting for the move. Doesn't seem apparent to you this is one of the reasons why they don't want us to attack Mr. Snoot ?

E

 

Friedrich--please explain to me where you get your info on "Mr. Bush?" bitte.

He may have policies I too might not agree with but, he is where he is at and im where im at. I and appx 250 million ++ Americans cannot force him to change his policies and for the most part--I agree with MOST of his forign polocies Especially those towards Iraq.

Im getting VERY tired of people bashing my country and the people who fight and die for it. Also, they not only Fight and Die for us--but for YOU too.

Im leaving this open by not saying too much--just so that those who want to "pick-my-nose" on this--can do so.

[ 21 October 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]