There was a huge amount of yap on the UK news about this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4553601.stm particularlly from that bastion of balanced reporting SKY news. Just out of curiocity did it register at all in the US media?
I heard that he called the US government a group of liars and murderers and that it is they who should be 'on trial', not him!
Positive or negative? What do people you know say about the legitimacy of Iraq war and motives behind the decision? I have heard or read some speculations. Of course - oil. But laso such things as the putativ wish of neocons to knock out a potential enemy of Israel. The last contention is b-s for me. The first - plausible. But what do people say?
What is very disturbing to me is, that the oasis of Tulips, as it looks from afar, the Netherkands, has seen two political murders, at least one of which was apparently carried out by islamists. Now, a third public person, Wilders, who opposes EU costitution and further immigration is receiving death threats and is under intense security surveillance (lives at a military basie). Is the war between Islam and Europe starting? What is going on in that country?
The first political murder you are referring to occured about three years ago in May 2002 when an environmentalist-gone-bananas assassinated a right-wing politician with nothing but populist utterances on a political program without financial backing whatsoever. One of the populist's main points was a reduction of immigration and expulsion of immigrants (for immigrants read Muslims) who refused to adapt to "Dutch values", undefined. However, the main reason for the murder was probably the fact that many people were scared by the ease with which a frothing populist could gain support with sweeping statements based on opinion instead of fact. Then someone went nuts and shot the guy. Very sad, because had he actually made parliament he would probably have gone down in political games in no time anyway, as did his party after he died. The second "political" murder was indeed truly inspired by Muslim fundamentalism: a controversial film maker was shot from across a street, then shot again from point-blank range, then stabbed, all by one radical fundamentalist on a frenzy who was also intending to die in police gunfire as a martyr, which the police refused to grant him. Fact is, however, that he was part of a tiny little splinter group in the Dutch Muslim community which opposes every kind of assimilation with Dutch culture - and the filmmaker really did insult them (calling muslims "goatfuckers"... it's a free country). This has little to do with the hardening political atmosphere in the Netherlands. There are two issues here: one, the fact that there is a large group of Muslims in the Netherlands who are stuck in their own culture and values and are beginning to worry Dutch "natives" by their intolerant behaviour towards what people here see as "Dutch"; and two, a new tendency of people in the Netherlands to turn radical and even violent about politics and opposing opinions. Death threats have been uttered to pretty much everyone opposing the mentioned populist in the political spectrum, after he was shot; death threats remain to be uttered to everyone expressing radical opinions, not even necessarily about immigration issues. Both issues can be solved if people were to just calm down and face facts, but they won't. That's all. About the causes of the war in Iraq: http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2170
So, Roel, it looks like both murders were caused by problems with or disputes over immigrants. It looks as if it´s the most important political problem in the Netherlands... The Press, I suspect, tries to play it down, to be politically correct etc. But: two political murders within 3 ys in a quiet country - it is not normal at all. Yes? I remember talking with some Danes on immigrants. They were frank: out with them. At any price - out. :bang: There is indeed a marked radicalization in the society there. And the antipathy is growing. People see that REFUGEES send their children "home" for vacation, get more money and better lodging than many locals, due to social services. At the same time - the male immigrants are moonshining and smuggling on large scale. One political party even talks about treason having been committed by letting so many "mustachios" in. It hurts people´s sense of decency. At the same time, many well trained descendants of "mustachios" just leave Denmark because they don´t like the attitude they meet everywhere. Maybe it´s good to have friends of various colors and cultures, but living side by side is proving near impossible. Unfortunately.
Not much from the media. They have made a few reports and have shown him to be an arrogant loud mouth but not much coverage other than that. The media doesn't cover a lot when Republicans and Democrats are actually working together. :roll:
Not very surprising. Over here many papers hailed him as defending his honour against the American witch-hunters & putting one over the Yanks (deliberate use of nickname to indicate mood). Even the BBC report (the most impartial I have seen) is a little that way. Ah, National bias.
Did you read my post? I'm assuming you did but you definitely missed some points. One, not both murders were strictly political, one being more religiously inspired. Two, not both murders were about immigrants. Having two murders of public figures in just three years is indeed not normal, but they have nothing to do with each other unless you count the fact that both are a result of and through themselves reinforce a toughening of Dutch society. This of course has to do with problems like unemployment and economic stagnation of recent years, which throughout Europe has led to racist outbursts and fundamentalism in response (or vice versa).
Your own words: "One of the populist's main points was a reduction of immigration and expulsion of immigrants (for immigrants read Muslims) The second "political" murder was indeed truly inspired by Muslim fundamentalism" I just linked these two and asked if it means that immigration has become the main issue in your contry. Was this an unfounded question?
I'd say yes. I didn't say that immigration issues were the main cause for the first murder; after all the killer was an environmentalist, not a Muslim or any kind of religious zealot. The second murder was not political, it was religiously inspired and had to do with a certain Muslim faction not respecting freedom of speech in Western countries. So linking both cases to politics and to immigration issues is a wild generalization. Basically they have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that the conditions for such brutal murders are apparently present in Dutch society today. Anyway this side-issue seems to have hijacked the topic...
Cheers Roel I have beem trying to find this site for ages. http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Videos/ILReenactmento take note europe http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Videos/BushinHolland God bless America. :lol:
