London Explosions

I'm not a communist, dammit!
As to the relating poverty -> terrorism -> London attacks, I don't recall I made that specific link, I was talking about terrorism in general and so was Simon.

He's the only person on this forum who is Muslim, that I know of. To me he is therefore a Muslim representative here, if not an official one for any official grouping.

Yes, like the fact that the West can't be pinned on any heretical doctrine more so than the far East or Africa itself. Their motivation can't be religious only or they'd be agitating against these regions as well. If they are at all selective in this matter it is because there are other reasons than the purely religious for the terrible crimes they commit.

Hyperbole is a tool of rhetoric.

 

The more of this I read, the more it sounds like the early 20th century. In that I mean the terrorists are radical followers of some wacko. The way these wacko's achive power is by gathering as many illiterate and/or disenchanted young men to follow them as they can. The more followers they have, the power the can wield.

Hitler and the Nazi's, Lenin/Stalin and the Soviets, Mao and the Red Chinese done basically the same thing. They told made up crap to all who would listen, telling them how bad their situation is, how bad the world is, etc. Once they had folks listening, they told them who's fault all of their troubles were. The Nazi's used the Jews, Soviets used the Russian monarchy and later capitalism, etc. Hey, if a lie is told often enough and to enough people, it will eventually be taken as fact.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that every power struggle has to have an enemy. Destroying the enemy becomes the cause that your followers believe in. Unfortunately, the only way to deal with radicals like this is to annihilated them while doing your best not to hurt innocents.

As for Muslim representatives, I meant priests, civic/political leaders, etc.

 

Poverty as a cause of terrorism.

If you have poor young impressionable people, Many clever smooth talking people are able to persuade them that to fight for thier God (who they pasionately believe in, whatever He is called, Allah, God, Buddah, etc.) Once you have the interest of the individual in this cause. then several tactics are used. Payment to family of money to die for God and become a martyr. This gives you family money one less mouth to feed and a martyr in the family. This tactic is used.

from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/ ... 5316.shtml

I know this is not sufficient evidence for you but it is hard to find it on the net.

I did say it is one cause and not the only cause.

 

No you are right at the moment they are too busy killing each other.

 

Nothing much. You said it yourself - Poverty is a cause of terrorism. There are others.

Except the British Council of Mosques, see my post of the interview...

 

Ricky wrote:

Did I? I don't recall saying that.

Many people confuse correlation with causation.
I suppose one can conclude that breathing oxygen causes premature death since it can be proven that nearly everyone who has died prematurely was observed breathing oxygen prior to their death? I'm developing a theory about aspirin as the cause of headaches along the same lines.

Can you point to a notable terrorist act that you think was motivated primarily by poverty rather than religious intolerance/zealotry or political/philosophical idealogy?

 

Grieg, in your question you said
"what does it do to the poverty as a cause of terrorism theory?"



Now, the poverty-terrorism link.

It is not "I'm poor, so I'll become a terrorist"

Basically, 'the poor' (awful term, I know) can be more easily exploited.
No, not because poor = gullible, or even poor = ill educated.

Picture this. You are poor. You live in a poor district in a poor country.
A man comes to you and asks if you enjoy being poor. He points out the great wealth of Group A of people. He points out that Group A are wealthy by exploiting you / your country for your resources / workforce / whatever. You are poor to keep them rich.
If it were not for them, you & your family & your country could have a better chance & have the lifestyle you deserve.
(Insert religious or political diatribe here)
So, would you like to help redress the balance?
The only way is to force them out.
We cannot do it with tanks.
We must shake them out of their complacency. The soft iperialists have no stomach for killing.

And off you go.

 

Ricky wrote:

Putting that quote in it's proper context it was obvious that I did not subscribe to the theory. Indeed I disputed it.
Your "you said it yourself" remark incorrectly implies the contrary.

Sorry but I find that scenario rather silly. There is a rather large gap in it leading up to the part where they say "by the way, since you agree with our basic assumptions, we'd like you to blow yourself up
okay?
By that reasoning gullibility and naivte is a "cause" of terrorism as is stupidity. To be a causal link the connection should not be so attenuated or nearly anything could be said to be a cause of terrorism.
If they hadn't spoken the same language thus could not communicate then the attack could not have been planned thus language is a cause of terrorism and so on and so on...reductio adabsurdium.
Poverty does not make one susceptible to the suggestion of following such an extreme course of action whereas religious zealotry(particularly coupled with the concept of martyrdom gaining instant admittance to paradise) clearly can and has motivated people to extreme actions in the past up to and including suicide.

 

Grieg,

1) this is becoming a silly issue of semantics . You did say 'a' cause. Whatever implications are in there on either side are not relevant. You said (well, wrote) what you said (wrote). But anyway, it matters not. We all know your views on that issue.

2) Ok, taking things to extreme re: language. You could also claim that the moon is made of cheese because nobody has yet actually tried eating a piece. The basic point is that poorer people are more easily manipulated into extremism, as they are more open to bitterness towards those who are (or are percieved to be) living the high life at their expense. Anger is a big motivator. There is an argument to say that poor people psychologically feel that they have less to lose, but I am suspicious of that. The fanaticism required to go blow yourself up comes with the Political/religious diatribe. Once you have your victim agreeing with your basic jist, you can install some wonderfully stilted ideas.
Peer pressure is also a surprisingly effective method - witness the 15-year old Palestinian attempted suicide bomber captured by the Israelis.

Being more pedantic - it would probably be clearer to say that continued poverty is one reason that terrorist organisations have a continuing supply of recruits.
The basic cause of terrorism itself is a small group of fanatics who believe that every means possible should be used to achieve their aim, which obviously is the right one for the world.

Can we agree there?

 

this to me states that it is lack of education and understanding of other societies not the poverty.
it is the age old saying..you do not miss what you have never had!
when you are poor often you do not realise how poor you are because you do not know any different.
unless you have experienced a richer lifestyle you can have no understanding how that lifetsyle is lived you have no appreciation for it.

often in poor societies it is religion that is their salvation their guiding through life, their education, their moral standard. becuase it is so strong it makes them more suseptible to extreemist teachings, because they believe that what they are told by religious figures to be right and just.

just look at the crusades from europe in the middle ages the same principle applies...where there is no education..religion is king!!

 

Fallout regarding Luton (remember that the first 4 bombers boarded the train here)

http://www.lutononline.co.uk/ViewArticl ... ID=1094749

 

As if you could expect a rational response from the media. Labelling anywhere as "Al Quaeda" street is slightly OTT (over the top for non-native English speakers). I wouldn't even consider a Muslim country as a "hot bed" of recruitment - there's people and there's people...

 

An interesting article for those wondering about treason...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4132578.stm

 

do we really thing the terriorst are that smart

 

Some of them must be, otherwise we'd never suffer an actual attack.