Japanese Invasion

I was wondering what some people's thoughts would be on this topic?
How possible do think it was for Japan to invade the US mainland, and or Australia?
Go into as much detail as you want!

 

I don't think they could have invaded the US mainland, unless they had sent a serious enough force to capture Kiska and Attu etc.

From there they would have to take all of Alaska, go through a portion of Canada, and come through the state of Washington, possibly trying to go through where Erich lives Oregon, and possibly capturing parts of Idaho and Montana.

In the end, I think it would be one of the Japanees biggest blunders of the war and a completely lost cause.

As for Australia, they did attack Port Moresby, and might have been able to get some of Australia, but, with such wide open territories, I doubt that would have done much either.

Plus, as they were already stretching it a huge bit by all the other territories they had captured, and being in China and Indochina, plus having to maintain a huge enough force to keep watch on the Russians at Japans back door, I can see only VERY limited possibilities for the Japaneese, to do any serious efforts on invading either place.

Just my Nickels worth.

 

I think Japan should have and could have successfully invaded Pearl Harbor but not mainland U.S. nor Australia. It would have succeeded in drastically cutting down the navy since those ships that were not sunk but severly damaged would have been written off. It would have taken the U.S. longer to come back.

 

Yeah i pretty much agree with all you said. The only realistic way for japan invading the US mainland was through Alaska. For it made a great staging area. But even still this being the most realistic possibility is well...unrealistic for it to have happened LOL, for Japan never came close to having the logistics to do such a thing.
As for Australia...i don't think they would have occupied the country...i think if they could have they would have occupied pieces of the continent that were important to the Japanese...sorta like what they did in China.
I also agree that in the first months of the war the Japanese should have tried to get Hawaii...i think it would have been hard for them...but if they didn't wait too long...i think they would have done it. That at least would have made the war last that much longer.
BUT nonetheless...the war would still have been lost for i doubt the US would have given up until in the very least like have the mainland was occupied and that's just laughable for the Japanese to do that!!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzJgr:
I think Japan should have and could have successfully invaded Pearl Harbor but not mainland U.S. nor Australia. It would have succeeded in drastically cutting down the navy since those ships that were not sunk but severly damaged would have been written off. It would have taken the U.S. longer to come back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The logistics for invading the Hawaiian Islands were decisively against Japan.
1) An invasion would have required a half-dozen or so divisions of troops dedicated to the endeavor and the occupation of the Hawaiian Islands. Where would Japan have procured these divisions? The siezure of the Dutch East Indies was absolutely crucial to Japanese war aims. This was the only feasibly adequate supply of petroleum. Once the Japanese strategic reserve was GONE. Only the oilfields in the Dutch possessions could be reached. No divisions could have been shaken loose there.
The invasion of Malaysia was a strategic neccessity as well. The capture of the British possessions here would provide a secure coast line along the route for oil tankers from the Dutch East Indies along the Chinese coast to Japan. Just as important was the fact that rubber was vital to Japanese war aims in ways we do not normally consider. The only feasible supply source for rubber was Malaysia and French Indo China. The British fortress of Singapore had to be in Japanese hands to provide security for operations agains the Dutch possessions and along the way to New GUinea and Australia. There were no divisions available here either.
The Philipine invasion was a strategic neccesity as well for the Japanese. There were a large variety of raw materials available there as well as naval and air stations to project control along the shipping lanes to the critical possessions to be taken to the south. The siezure of the Philipines also insured security for the shipping lanes from the oil fields and rubber plantations to Japan.
China was the original strategic object of Japan's expansionist policies. It also jealously demanded the lion's share of the Japanese army assets. To strip divisions away from China would have endangered the entire reason for the war: the creation of the Greater Asian Propserity Sphere.
Even if divisions had been stripped from more immediate needs, attaching transports to the Pearl Harbor raiding force would have reduced their effective speed from 30 knots to between 13 and 15 knots. This would have doomed the strike group to discovery before the raid could be launched in the first place.
No, Hawaii was far beyond the Japanese reach.

 

Very well said posting and welcome aboard!

 

I agree. The idea that the Japanese could ever have invaded mainland USA is completely unreal. I do remember that, after planning the attack on Pearl Harbour, Admiral Yamamoto said that it occured to him that the only way that Japan could win was to dictate terms in the White House! He also said "I sought to make a knock-out blow against the United States, but fear all we have done is awoken a sleeping giant and filled it with a terrible resolve." I think he knew only too well that Japan had made a terrible mistake in attacking the US, but, unable to capitulate without a shot being fired, felt they had no choice but to fight. This was Roosevelt's greatest mistake during WW2 - believing that he could force Japan to the negotiating table through an oil and scrap metal embargo.

Chris Ray

 

I think that Roosevelt underestimated the Japenese.

 

I THINK THE "TAKAKA PLAN" CALLED FOR THE OCUPATION OF THE WESTEN HALF OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT I DOUDT THAT THE MEN WHO REALLY DID THE PLANING EVER TOOK THAT PART OF THE PLAN SERIOUSLY. I BELIVE ADM. YAMOMOTO NEVER THOUGHT OF SUCH AN IDEA FOR AN INSTANT....HIS PLAN, AND I THINK IT WAS A SOUND ONE, WAS TO HIT THE AMERICANS HARD, FIRST AT PEARL, THEN THE PHILIPINNES, WAKE....THE BRITISH AT SINGAPORE....WHICH THEY DID WITH GREAT SUCSESS. THIS MENT THEY HAD THE RUN OF THE PACIFIC FOR THE NEXT YEAR. I THINK THEY FIGGURED THAT WITH THE ALLIED COMMITMENT IN EUROPE, THAT THE WESTERN POWERS WOULD SIMPLY SAY TO HECK WITH IT AND LEAVE JAPAN IN CONTROLL OF MOST, IF NOT ALL THE TERRITORY THEY HAD OCUPIED UP TO THEN.
IM NOT SURE THAT I AGREE THAT THE PRESEDENT UNDERESTAMATED THE JAPANESE, BECAUSE WE HAD PEOPLE LIKE GENERAL STILLWELL, WHO HAD BEEN IN THE EAST FOR MANY YEARS. THESE GUYS KNEW THE CAPEABILITYS OF THE JAPANESE AND THE CHINISE. I THINK THE PRESEDENT KNEW THAT WAR WITH JAPAN WAS COMEING. HE TRYED TO PUT IT OFF AT ALL COST UNTILL THE MILITARY COULD BE MOBILIZED, AND WE HAD A STABLE POSITION IN EUROPE....BUT THE JAPANESE STRUCK FIRST !....I THIN IT GO'S WITHOUT SAYING, THAT THE REASON THE OVERALL JAPANESE PLAN FAILED IN THIS REGARD WAS THAT IT WAS THEY WHO UNDERESTEMATED THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, THEY REALLY MADE US MAD WHEN THEY ATTACKED PEARL WITHOUT A DECLARATION OF WAR (REGARDLESS AS TO HOW OR WHY ALL THAT CAME ABOUT )
THE GOVERNMENT AND PEOPLE OF THE U.S. WERE DETERMINED NOT TO STOP FIGHTING UNTILL JAPAN WAS SOUNDLEY DEFEATED....IWO JIMA AMOUNG OTHERS PROVES THAT.

 

The "Takaka plan" that sounds interesting..i would LOVE to read about the particulars of their plans for invasion!

 

Walt--you and Ron look like this forums experts on the Pacific War--it would be cool to see what you guys can creat with your knowledge of it. Im rusty on mine to do with that area of ww2-since I specialize on the Eastern Front and the Western Front--mainly the Eastern Front.

[ 09 April 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

I think my interest in WW11 comes from a desire to try to understand the overall strategy of the Pacific theater, and the causes which lead up to the war. I thank you for your vote of confidence, but I would be the first to admit that I'm no expert, just an interested student, just trying to learn more about this fasanating subject.
As to the "Tanaka Plan"....It was written in 1927 by the then Premier of Japan and a member of the "Black Dragons".....He sent his secret plan to the Emporor....the plan was discovered, but was dismissed as a fraud. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, it was dug out dusted off. I was plain that the document had been a real thing, and the most of the high ranking members of the government and the military were members of the "dragons", and had planded to follow this blue print to dominate most of the world right from the beginning.Basicily the idea was to concour China, Mongolia,Manchuria, Indo China,Malaisa, the Philipinnes,all the Pacific Islands, Alaska, Russia,And the Western United States, as far East as the Rocky Mountains.I have never read the whole thing, just bits and pieces, and I dont know a lot about the "Black Dragoons" but I think they were a secrete organazation, who would kill anyone who stood in the way of the Japanese umbrella of domination. Tojo for example, was a member.The jest of the document is the fact that it recognized that for the plan to work, Japan would have to fight the United States, in order to gain controll of the Pacific. The way they would do this, was to stage a sneek attack on the American Asiaic Squadron (then stationed in the Philipinnes).Remember their sucsess against the Russians in 1905, when they destroyed most of the Russian fkeet with a sneak attack.
To me the world war really began in 1931, when the Japanese invaded Manchoria....then as the U.S. tryed to maintain the "open Door" the Militarist in controll in Japan put the rest of the plan into action,starting with the Pearl Harbor attack.
Thats what I ment the other day when I said that I dont belive that a wise man like Adm. Yamamoto thought for a monent that Japan could truly defeate the U.S., a lot had changed since 1927, and he had seen the industry of America.
Didn't mean to be so long winded !
Thanks again for this Forum, and all that you guys contribite to it. I have learned a lot, and I enjoy reading other peoples views on the same subject !

 

Excellent material above. I too am no expert on anything, but I just have an unending desier to learn as much about the Eastern Front--as I can.

Heres a tiny bit of info for you in your area of interest.

Did you know that the Kriegsmarine had a big Uboat base and had many many operations,in the Pacific. Base was in Singapore and Kapitan zur See Wilhelm Dommes (RKT) was in command of the Singapore base--but not over-all command in the Pacific.

Also, I personally know and are friends with all the surviving vets from U 181, who were stationed there in the last several months of ww2. Sadly, only 7 still live--as of today.

 

HI MR. EVENS, AND THANKS FOR THE COME BACK....NO I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THE GERMAN U-BOATS IN THE PACIFIC....INTERESING TOPIC...I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT SUBMARINES. I HAVE OFTEN READ THAT THE JAPANESE HAD GOOD BOATS WITH GOOD CREWS, BUT THE IMPERIAL NAVY DID NOT USE THEM AS EFECTIVLY AS THEY COULD HAVE. THE JAPANESE PATTERNED MOST OF THEIR MILITARY ON EUROPEN, MOSTLY GERMAN AND FRENCH WEAPONS, TACTICS ETC. AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE GERMAN AND UNITED STATES NAVY'S SUBS WERE USED WITH GREAT SKILL, AND TO DEVASTATEING AFFECT....I'M SURPRISED THAT THE GERMANS DID NOT SOMEHOW INFLUANCE THE JAPANESE SUBMARINE SERVICE MORE THAN THEY DID....MAYBE THEY WERE THERE, JUST AS A TOKEN JESTURE?......KINDA IRONIC, THAT THE FIRST SHOT FIRED IN THE PACIFIC WAR, WAS WHEN THE U.S.S. WARD SUNK A JAPANESE MINI-SUB AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PEARL HARBOR ATTACK...LATER FRIEND.

 

HI RON, I HAD FORGOTTEN TO ADD AUSTRAILIA TO THE LIST INCLUDED IN THE "TANAKA PLAN" BUT IT WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT. THE JAPANESE NEEDED A BASE OF OPERATIONS IN THE "SOLAMANS" AND NEW "GUINEA" TO LANCH AN ATTACK AGAINST THE LAND DOWN UNDER, AND THEY INTENDED TO DO SO, BUT THEY WERE STOPPED ON "GUADLECANAL" BY THE UNITED STATES, AND IN NEW GINEA BY THE U.S. AND THE BRITS AND AUSTRALINS. IT TURNED OUT TO BE QUITE A BATTLE, AND THE OUTCOME WAS IN QUESTION FOR A LONG TIME. THE JAPANESE HAD CONTROLL OF BOTH SEA AND AIR. BUT IN THE END THE JAPANESE DESIDED THAT IT WAS BETTER TO SUPPORT THE FIGHT GOING ON IN NEW GUINEA AT THE THE TIME, SO THEY WERE SPREAD THIN, AS THE ALLIS WERE. ALTHOUGH THE JAPANESE BOMBED AUSTRALIA SOME 58 TIMES, NO REAL ATTACK WAS EVER POSSIBLE. WHEN THESE TWO CAMPAIGNS WERE OVER, THE JAPANESE WERE FORCED TO MOVE FURTHER NORTH TO PROTECT THEIR BASES CLOSER TO JAPAN.THIS IN TURN ALLOWED MCAUTHER TO USE AUSTRALIA AS HIS STAGING AREA FOR THE RETURN TO THE PHILIPINNES LATER....LATER, FRIEND.

 

Hey Ward,

AHHHhhh it's nice to finally get a guy interested in the pacific like i am! I was all alone here for the longest time. All these other guys are Russian front men heh.
That interesting about the Tanaka plan...seems so unrealistic looking on it now.
Hey i just heard an interesting fact...You mentioned the Ward shooting the first shot on Dec. 7th...did you know 3 years later on Dec. 7th 1944 The ward was sunk by a kanakaze. 3 years to the day! wierd

 

HI RON,& EVERYBODY,....NO,I DIDEN'T KNOW THAT ABOUT THE "WARD"....ISEN'T IT STRANGE HOW THEIR ARE ALLWAYS THINGS LIKE THAT IN WARS....OH YEA, IT GETS TO DOG-GONE COLD ON THE EASTERN FROUNT...JUST CANT GET INTO IT....NO KIDDING THOUGH, MY DAD AND MY UNCLE SERVED IN THE PACIFIC, AND I DID TOO IN THE 60'S, SO I GUESS IT COMES NATHRAL FOR ME....OK A STRANGE STORY...MY DAD WAS IN THE 6TH INFANTRY DIVISION, AND MY UNCLE WAS ON A DESTORYER ESCORT (SMALL)..AS THE WAR ENDED, MY UNCLES SHIP ( THE U.S.S. "ROLFE" ) WAS DETATCHED TO HAUL TROOPS TO KOREA TO ROUND UP JAPANESE SOLDIERS AND SEND THEM HOME....WELL, GUESS WHO HE RAN INTO ON THAT LITTLE OLE SHIP....YEP, MY DAD. OUT OF THOSE THOUSANDS OF MEN. BY THE WAY HE IS MY UNCLE BY MARRIGE. HE MARRIED MY DADS SISTER AFTER THE WAR BEGAN. BOTH MEN WERE UNAWARE, THAT THE OTHER WAS EVEN IN THE SERVICE.....ON A PERSONNAL NOTE, I WAS BORN SIX YEARS TO THE DAY AFTER THE UNITED STATES DECLARED WAR ON JAPAN, AND I WAS SWORN INTO SERVICE TWENTY YEARS TO THE DAY AFTER JAPAN SURENDERED ON THE "MIGHTY MO"...NO BIG DEAL, I JUST HAPPENED TO NOTICE THESE DATES THE OTHER DAY...CARMA ?...WHAT?...LATER-WALT

 

Boy that's wierd how stuff like that happens. My grandfather was an MP but i am not aware of what unit. He was stationed in Hawaii at Schofield barracks. Apparently he was training for the invasion of Japan but of course that never happened and he went right back home never going farther than Hawaii.

 

Gentleman: Japans biggest problem was they went to far to fast. They conquered alot of ground but then they couldnt defend it all. Look at how the US skipped over major Japanese bases. You dont need to fight them if you can cut off their supplies. Because the Japanese where stretched to thin we fought where it was necessary (no sense wasting lives for property you dont need), Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa etc. and most of these were for future airfields and later on for a jump off against Japan itself. If Japan had been able to fortify their aquisitions the whole way through, US losses would have been considerably higher. My grandfather served with the 43rd from NG status on through to Occupation Duty. He for one was glad that they never had to take on every island they came across. You dont know the fear they felt when they heard they might have to invade Rabaul. If the Japanese had been able to fortify even half of the islands the way they did at Rabaul (100,000 soldiers), then an invasion of the US would not have been out of the question. Lastly, I dont think the Japanese Army and Navy would have ever agreed on how to carry it out (talk about interservice rivalry). Invasion possible? Anything is possible, isnt it?

 

Hi 43rd...You made a very good point about the Army & Navy not getting along. They often would not support each other in magor campaigns. I think it's one of the worst mistakes the Japanese made.....I still do not belive that they could have ever invaded the United States...provided the U.S. maintained a stronger Navy than theirs....for one important reason, we were sinking more of their ships than they could build, so it was simpley a matter of time. They could not reinforse or feed the troops in the field or resupply the air corp or Navy with the raw matieral needed to wage war. It dident matter anymore if they were able to get these materail's from Malaisia, indo-Chnia or other places...if our ships sunk thier shipping at a great enough rate...the Japanese Military, wherever they were, would simply wither on the vine, which is what happened. After Gaudlecanal and New ginea, the japanese were forced to go on the defenceive and tighen the outer ring of Islands to protect the home Island of Japan. But it should have been ovious to them that the war was lost because of the resupply problem. I think thats why most Americans resented the Japanese so much, they would not surrender, eventhough it was hopeless, and many more soldiers, marines and seamen would have to be killed to end a war the Japanese could not possibley win. As we have talked about before, Admerial Youmamoto, understood in 1941, they could not win, all he hoped to achive was a devastating attack on the American fleet, then invade as much territory as possible in the next year. They then hoped the Allies would sue for peace, so they( the allies) would be free to fight the Germans....which would leave the Japanese withe most or all the territory they had taken.But we fought them to the bitter end because our people and our Presedent sore to make the Japanese pay for what we considered trechery....and because we were discusted by the Bonzi charges where they would charge our mortors and machine guns when all was lost, like on the canal, Tarrawa, Iwo-Jima and all the others. Also, their was the death march and the treatment of prisners. We as a Nation were going to defeat the Japanese, no matter what the cost.