i would have posted this at german ground control but it doesn't fit over their plan is simple. you are herman Goering (that doesn't mean that you have to gain weight to post ). it's june 1940 and your job it to knock out the RAF. how would you do it (and while you're at it, how do you defait the UK anyway?)
Put simply, you don't because you can't. Your only hope for defeating the UK is to gain total air supremacy over the South East in the hope that the demoralised British people realise the futility of the war and sue for peace. A political victory is possible, a military one all but an impossibility.
and why not??? the luftwaffe has size and experience. the RAF only has quallity and they hadn't much spitfires at that time so the battle can be one by the germans. and once the germans land on Britain they would find no oposition. the amry had abandoned their equipement in dunkirk
Ah, the old 'could Germany win the Battle of Britain' argument! First, you must assume that Hitler is willing to put off invading the USSR... 1) German fighters (not counting the Bf 110 which needed a fighter escort itself!) had inadequate range to go any further than they historically did (roughly to about London). Fitting drop tanks does not change much, as they will not have flown far (from their bases in France) before they have to jettison the drop tanks because the RAF fighters are intercepting them. So, you either have only attacks on the South East (which broadly happened) or unescorted bombers attacking everywhere. 2) If Germany does intensely pressure the South East, and if the RAF decide to abandon it (2 big ifs) then all that happens is that the RAF now operates from 'safe' airfields, but is still able to intercept the Germans over the South East. It might be a 'political' or a 'psychological' defeat, but in real terms means very little, except a harder time for British Channel shipping. Germany does not gain air superiority anywhere, anyhow. 3) The biggest damage that the Germans can do is to put the radar stations out of commision, thus forcing the RAF to mount constant patrols. This can be done with commandos (this happened) but all that happens is after the first couple of raids the British increase the guards. You can bomb them, but bomb damage to radar stations was historically fairly easy to repair, and never took more than a couple of days to repair. And of course the RAF fighters will be intercepting all these raiders. 4) Seelowe... Ok, if the Germans suddenly conjure a fleet of adequate invasion vessels out of thin air, and if the RN is somehow removed from the war, then maybe. It does seeem like Simon is right... (how unusual! )
First off, the RAF is more than just 11 Group Fighter Command. As Ricky has already pointed out only the Bf110s had the range to escort bombers any further than London, when Bf110 escort only missions were attempted (From Norway), the bombers got slaughtered, so that largely leaves 10 and 12 group unaffected, if Fighter Command were forced to concede 11 Group's airfields they could, again as Ricky said, relocate north to 12 Group leaving their airfields relatively immune and their fighters still more than capable of intercepting the escorted daylight formations. Much of what else I would say has been already said by Ricky. The Luftwaffe never actually had a clear directive throughout the Battle of Britain, they were alternately tasked with destroying the entire RAF (Including Bomber and Coastal Command), destroying the entire of fighter command, destroying 11 Group, establishing air superiority over Kent or establishing an aerial blockade. Given this muddle of sometimes conflicting aims it is difficult to say which one to use in assessing the chances of the Luftwaffe winning the Battle of Britain. To me, it seems reasonable that they possibly could win air superiority over Kent, but so what? That's really pretty useless, considering that they could never establish the same level of superiority over 10 and 12 Group's territories. Crucially as well, Luftwaffe intelligence throughout the Battle of Britain was extremely poor, often they simply did not know which targets to bomb. On occasion they devastated Coastal Command airfields, whilst throughout the Battle the Supermarine factory at Southhampton, well within even Stuka range was largely untouched. Again, pretty much from Adlertag the RAF was reckoned to be down to its "last handful" of Spitfires. Seelowe was pretty much always going to be an impossibility. Much of the southeast's (Where I live) coast is cliff, very difficult to assault whether your transports are truck, halftrack, tank or horse. The Germans had no amphibious landing craft, just impressed River Barges. Against these the RN and RAF wouldn't even have had to hit them to sink them, the RN wouldn't have even had to shoot them, the wake of a destroyer would have sank them. Plus once they are beached there is no second wave of reinforcements. Equally important the German Navy was simply not strong enough to protect the invasion corridor, and the Luftwaffe at that point was not an especially potent anti-warship force. IF the Germans were able to land and supply a large enough force and protect the invasion corridor they could have easily beaten the beleaguered British Army, my contention however is that they simply wouldn't have been able to do so.
If i would be Goering in 1940...things to do list: 1- If i was Goering....can i kill Hitler:bang: ??? I got the power yeah! 2- Get help from those tanker guys on the ground at Dunkerque! As we know it was impossible to stop the evacuation at Dunkerque by the Luftwaffe and the wehrmacht could have done the job in capturing the expeditionay force...i wonder what would have happened with some better cooperation between these forces! I would never promise that air power alone could win the battle! 2- The thing i would do now is get the He-100D in full production as it has about 250km more range than the Bf-109....and it was a better aircraft! (probable would have done that earlier) 4- ok i just killed Hitler, captured/Destroyed the English Expeditionary Force at Dunkerque, seezed power in Germany, got about 200.000 UK Soldiers captured and im not talking about other POW...maybe it's time to talk? If plan 1 fails...or i got scared...i still would have built those Heinkels He-100D...as i think these are the right aircraft! Maybe with the right aircraft i can get that air supremacy over the South East...defeating the RAF by destoying it's airfields without bombing London would let me win! When i defeat the RAF , Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil. No invasion needed...maybe than we could fight against those Russian together??!! Problem with that is that i need Churchill to get those English to fight with me.....battle still lost :lol:
if we don't look at Joops plans we come to the conclusion that germany couldn't win the battle of Britain. thats another thing we know. tham, those He 100D's are better then Me109. why didn't they replace them??? Goering was such a fool
well, there is an argument to say that the Bf109 was easier to mass-produce... Though in reality the 109 won because Messerschmitt was better liked. :roll: I'm not convinced that even with the He-100 Germany would 'win' Remember that airfields in SE England were hit so badly because there was often little or no warning time of raids - raids on 10 or 12 Group airfields would have to cross SE England first, giving far more time for preparation & interception.
well as it was written i would stomp the bef at dunk with the army then i would launch massive air raids on radar stations and airports to hold britain down 2. order all submarines in the atlantic to cut them of supplies 3. germany had nearly 4 millon soldiers at that time so i would dispatch about 1.5 millons to conquer the balkans and greece then crete, malta and gibraltar all 3 with Fallschirjägers these measures should be done by beginning 1941 4. the armygroup of 1.million who took the balkans should move on to n africa with secured supplie lines (malta and gibralta are taken) instead of the small africa corps of about 50000 and push the brits over the suez and later they should take iraq and iran with its oil fields these measures should be done begining 1942 mean while hong kong and singapur and burma are already taken by the japs and britain is compleatly isolated now the submarines under the sea and the Luftwaffe on the other side of the channel and no outpost in the oversea i think the brits would be ready for peace and know Hitler could engage russia in 1942 with no opponent in the west and an allied in the south Italy and he could engage not just from former poland also from iran in the south penetrating through the caucasus that would be my STrategy very long and complicated but its britains luck to be an island if there would be and Land conection the german Tank division would just roll them over like they did with nl dk n b f yug and finish all this in 1940 but its an island and so i have to create this long time Strategy
I think that this is about the best strategy Germany could have played. One big problem though - Stalin was planning to invade Germany in 1941! In reality Hitler attacked first, but think what the outcome would be in the USSR attacked Germany while she was busy focussing on Britain and the Middle East / North Africa...
well as i said only 1.5 millons were in the south that means that 3 millions were still in center europe and russia was moralic down because they were defeated by the small finns and now they should attack germany wich just knocked out half europe i dont think that Stalin attacked that early not after the blamage in finnland
But: 1) Finland was fought in terrain & weather that did not favour the Russians. 2) The USSR learnt a lot from Finland 3) 3 million troops + a whole lot of tanks were ready to roll into Europe. At this stage the USSR had mostly BT-7 tanks with a few T34s and KV-1s appearing - while Germany had PzIIIs. The VVS were larger than the Luftwaffe, and were capable of doing to the Luftwaffe what (historically) the Luftwaffe did the them. 4) This is not really a 'possible' - it is fairly certain that Stalin would have invaded Germany had hitler not acted first. Take a look here http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2164 and maybe we can revive an old post rather than going wildly off topic here (my fault - sorry! ) Right - back to BoB...
Yeah man Operation Barbarossa was Self-Defence Did you know that many many Bf 109s were lost, when they were runing out of fuel on their way back, because they had to escort the bombers as long as possible.
Al Amin just posted the best strategy. luckly that he wasn't hitler in a former life or we would be speaking german (at least in Europe). Russia attacks in 1941. hmmm, i don't think so; ok, they had a lot of material stationed at the border but see the population they had it was relativly seen as big as al other countries borderforces. even if they attacked. hitlers forces were also their and they would fight better (else barbarossa would be halted in a couple weeks) and might stop the russians
Official Admin post... Ok, I'm a naughty boy for starting the distraction, but could you please post anything extra on the 'would Stalin attack Germany' debate in the appropriate topic. It could be a very good debate, and I look forward to getting involved! Cheers, Ricky
sure, only where does it stand (anyway, not that i would much debate on that topic, East frint isn't my theatre of war, i'm a naval and desert man )
Take a look here http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2164 Now, on with the show... An interesting article posted on another forum (tgplanes, by a guy called Kutscha) http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
