Best German Special units

Hey guys what do you think? wich was Germanys best special Force in ww2
The Fallschirmjäger-Luftwaffe
The SS-Jagdkommandos-Waffen SS
The Brandenburger-Heer
The Küstenjäger-Marine
i just finished two books about german Special forces and operations in ww2 wich was quit impressiv what they did but nothing is known about their succses because there were no big movies and tv series about them like american or british raids wich were filmed twice or even three or four times

i like the Fallschirjägers absolute outstanding!!!!
1 liberating the duce
2 taking crete with one division droped wrong against 50000 brits +numerous greeks and no heavy weapons and tanks
3 knocking out eben emael the mightiest fortress in the west with only a few Sturmgruppen
holding Cassino over month against a 4 times stronger opponent

 

Hey, I believe there is a topic about this kind of thing around already, maybe someone could find the link?

Meanwhile, the raid to liberate Mussolini was carried out by a chosen unit under Otto Skorzeny, who also led the operation to capture a Hungarian prince who threatened to drop the alliance with Germany, and who led the 150th Panzer Brigade during the Ardennes offensive. Arguably the units he commanded were not elite in themselves but were generally brilliantly led, which explains their succes (this does not go for the last example which was an utter failure).

I believe the number of British troops on Crete is overestimated. Commonwealth troops on Crete totalled one New Zealand division, one Australian brigade and one British regular brigade, plus some commandoes and AA personnel - hardly 50,000 men, I reckon.

 

Just a suggestion. Why not treat each independant post as a new question rather than posting links to the last time it was asked? There are only a finite number of questions and topics about WWII that can be asked and just putting a link and "This has already been done before" will naturally be a bit off putting to new posters.

Al Amin has a potentially good topic here, this is the best way to kill a possibly good discussion available.

Even if it has been done before, so what? If it gets posts on the forum it should be a good thing.

 

Usually I only post a link to a previous topic if I feel the information there would be of help to answer the question asked. This means that I'm not really trying to kill the thread (note that I did comment some on the post itself) but rather that I'm trying to find what is probably the best answer the forum can give - that which it has already given.

Obviously, if there's any news there may also be a continued discussion, whether that is here or in the other topic.

 

The thing is there wont always be news, but if it brings new members at least at a rate that equals the numbers of old members leaving that has to be a good thing. You never know, two or three pages down the line something might be mentioned that no-one realised or thought of before.

The impression I get from this forum is that unless it is an entirely new question the usual response is a link.

 

well thx simon
but you all know this for sure, if you read a new book about a new topic
its a lot on your mind and i thought here i would find qualified discussion partners as i said everybody knows about the allied commando ops (movies tv series etc.) but i wanted to check if any one else knows about the other side there you must be more amisios to find something

p.s. Skorzeny took part in the "duce assault " but only as a examiner it was the Fallschirmlehr Batailon from major mors who conducted the operation

 

Exactly 41.840 men + greek militia, who tortured many wounded paratroopers to death btw.

Pic, I don´t post it, because it´s to cruel and Simon´s childs do often look at this forum too


http://home.online.no/~vestil/crete/inv ... %20fj2.jpg

This extremely rare photo shows german paratroopers brutally murdered
by english soldiers( in fact it were done by greeks) as the originale text says behind this private photo.
They were abused, then beaten to death. The photos also shows bulletholes
on the corpses. Also note the bulletholes on the walls behind the corpses.
The flesh on the upper part of the right leg of the corpse to the left has
been totally removed or burnt. A block of wood has also been pushed
into his anus. The photo is probably taken nearby Heraklion in May 1941.
The dead soldiers belonged to the FJR.1.

http://home.online.no/~vestil/crete/inv ... e%20FJ.jpg

Close-up view of the brutally murdered german paratroopers
somewhere at Heraklion area in May 1941.



Today "The Downfall" was send in german TV (ARD) and I had a more or less nice discussion with my parents about war crimes and I´m shocked how people like them see german victims (soldiers and civilians). If I mention german victims they always say that there were also russian victims and germany began the war bla bla bla, doesn´t matter what I say, germany is always the bad one and german soldiers sacrifises were senseless and they did so many crimes bla bal bla.
I´m sick and tired of this.
I beg please you don´t miss understood this statement, I´m not a nazi and I know that it was a bad time, but I don´t need those pseudo-historians (not only my parents, but also my teachers ) who know nothin of WW2, only what they were taught in school.


My favourite special unit is the whole Waffen-SS, who fought bravely and proudly, who were outstanding soldiers, upsssss, if I say somethin´like that i must be a nazi in my parents eyes -.-

 

It depends how far you take it, of course. If you separate their conduct in battle from their beliefs and their atrocities, you can respect the SS as soldiers, though I have no doubt that you realize that many of them were involved in various massacres and war crimes. You are right, of course, that this fact should not make us downplay the losses suffered by Germany during WW2, which were just as terrible and crippling to the everyday lives of those left behind as the losses of this war were in other countries.

It's a pity the ARD cut the movie in two and spread the broadcast over two days, by the way. This destroys its marvellous climactic effect when seen at full length. Also it will be hard to remember who all those people in it were, tomorrow when you see part II.

Simon: your opinion is duly noted. The link wasn't given, anyway, and the topic's still here.

 

I don´t respect the entire SS, only the Waffen-SS. Why?
Because I can´t respect men like those KZ-Guards, who kill innocent jewish civillians and the SS-Ärtzte(doctors), who did pervert things with them.

But I can respect the soldiers of the Waffen-SS and I think they did not more crimes then other units in war??!! Of course they were involved in massacres like Oradur sur-glane, wormhout, toulon etc. and i´m terrible sry for it, as far as I can feel sry for a crime I did not comitt, but I think there were also many war crimes of allies units.

I can unterstand that they did war crimes, I´m not justifing it, but if you lost your brother, perhaps bleeding of in your arms, it´s normal that you aren´t treat the enemy like your best friend, am I right?

You have to consider what the Waffen-SS soldiers saw before they did those massacres.

Roel what would you think/do if you find a netherland ambulance, which is burned with the wounded, and you hear that those who did that are in the next village??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-Sur-Glane



I don´t wanna "clean" the Waffen-SS and they did terrible crimes indeed, which we should remember .
But we have to consider the circumstances

 

Horrible why did they tortured the Fallschirmjägers that way
but i think you cant say it were the british its true they were members of the british Army but actually they were kiwis (maoris) they also showed white flags and when the germans approach they opend Fire

 

Having read Skorzeney's biography (which he heavily collaborated with) the Duce mission was planned, led & exectuted by him. As was the Hungarian mission.

Obviously, being something he helped write, it could be heavily biased!

 

Of course, Waffen-SS. I should have made that distinction, Entschuldigung!

I think you just voided your own point by naming three atrocities in which the Waffen-SS was involved. Another is for example the Malmédy massacre, in which 85 American POWs were shot in cold blood. I can't name any equivalents for the average Allied unit, though there are rumours of POW shootings by US soldiers occuring in the Ardennes (I haven't any evidence of this though).

It is not too strange that the enemy tries to kill you as a soldier, after all you are also trying to kill him. If this were an explanation for war crimes committed by the Waffen-SS, then why didn't other units commit similar atrocities? Why do we still mention Oradour-sur-Glane, without being able to compare it to any (Western!) Allied atrocity? All participants fought the war under comparable circumstances...

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for what the SS (not specified) did during World War II, but I do need to be sure that you realize that these men cannot directly be compared to other armed forces during World War II. They are in fact an exception, and in the wrong way.

 

just as a little side note i've read a book called Sterling's men which is about the SAS units during WW2. and several occasions in the ETO they mention killing SS soldiers becuase the SS did it to so many of their own men.

 

Indeed, weren't SS-Totenkopf involved in the murder of British POWs in the lead up to Dunkirk? The SS, even the Waffen SS represented the very pinacle of brutality in Europe in WWII and in many respects as much as I generally hate to use this argument "They started it".

No side was completely innocent, the Soviets certainly weren't, but the Allied (Western and Soviet) treatment of German POWs and Civilians must be measured against Nazi treatment of Soviet and to a lesser extent Allied POWs and Civilians. If I were a Soviet soldier in Prussia in 1945 I would imagine that I would have one heck of a load of issues that I would want to take up with the local populace, civilian or otherwise.

 

The Fallschirmjager were easily the best because they always had the advantage of surprise. They captured a lot of places, including Crete, Eben Emael, and parts of the western tip of the Ukraine.

 

I agree up to a point however there is a vast difference between the way the Soviets treated German pows (and vice versa) and the way the Anglo-Americans treated German prisoners (and vice versa).
The death rate for Anglo-American pows in German camps was quite low especially compared to the Japanese camps. The war between the Germans and Soviets was altogether different.

 

Comparable??
Don´t think so, germany had enemies in every country, in contrast to this lets have a look at the Allies. The allies were never attacked by people, who were at day civilians and at night criminals(Resistance, russian partisans) And I think their reaction would have been the same as the of the Waffen-SS. I´ve never heard that the US-Army were attacked by civilians and had to react. The Waffen-SS fought under very different conditions in WW2 as you can read in the qoute about Oradur Sur-glane.


I do NOT admire the WAFFEN-SS, I just metioned that they were outstanding soldiers and it was some kinda protest against my parents. They did crimes, yes, and they were POLTICAL SOLDIERS. Favourite just means that I think that they were the "best". I don´t wanna say that I want to have Waffen-SS soldiers as my best friends. I just listed up some facts. I said that I respect them and so do I, but I don´t admire the faschism and thier ideological war

 

Che wrote:

I agree. Even those who detest them must admit that they were good soldiers. I admire the regular Heer more because they weren't fighting for a Nazi idealogy but were doing their duty as they saw it..just as the Allied troops were doing..and the regular German army units were outstanding soldiers also..just not as fanatical as the Waffen SS.

 

I agree that the german army had to fight under different circumstances than the allies, especially against non-regular ennemies, which explains some of the atrocities.(Tough it does in no way excuse them).

It must however be noted that the Waffen SS did not only comit crimes against partisans, but also against regular allied units.

It already started in the 1940 campaign in the west, where SS troops killed several hundred british Pow's outside Dunkirk without any aparent reason.

Some days later some hundred french-senegalese Pow's were assasinated.

Same in the Ardennes at Malmédy....

So, while the majority of soldiers serving in the Waffen SS were entirely blameless, the action of some units have forever tarnished the name of the Waffen SS.
And rightfully so.

But also let's not forget that the worst crime by a german military unit outside the eastern front was comitted in september 1943 by 1.Gebirgsdivision(not SS) on the greek island of Cefalonia, were some 5000 italian
Pow's were killed.(Another 5000 men of the same italian unit died in captivity in Germany).

 

It wasn´t only the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf, but also the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

There were 2 massacres in 1940 near dunkrik

Le Paradis

A company of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, trapped in a cowshed, surrendered to the 2nd Infantry Regiment, SS 'Totenkopf' (Death's Head) Division under the command of 28 year old SS Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knoechlein. Marched to a group of farm buildings, they were lined up in the meadow along side the barn wall. When the 99 prisoners were in position, two machine guns opened fire killing 97 of them. The bodies were then buried in a shallow pit in front of the barn.

Wormhout

The day after the Le Paradis massacre, around 100 men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment and the Royal Artillery, were taken prisoner by the No 7 Company, 2nd Battalion of the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. At Esquelbecq, near the town of Wormhoudt, about twelve miles from Dunkirk, the prisoners were marched across fields to a nearby farm and there confined in a barn with not enough room for the wounded to lie down. There the massacre began. About five stick grenades were lobbed in amongst the defenceless prisoners who died in agony as shrapnel tore into their flesh. When the last grenade had been thrown, those still standing were then ordered outside, five at a time, there to be mown down under a hail of bullets from the rifles of the executioners. Fifteen men survived the atrocity in the barn only to give themselves up later to other German units to serve out the war as POWs.


Nothin´exuse these massacres and those Waffen-SS soldiers, who did that are criminals and there were several more massacres in western europe.

Tulle

The day before the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane, the SS murdered 99 men in the town of Tulle in central France. This was in response to activities by the local FTP resistance groups who had attacked and taken over the town. When the 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich' took over the town they found 40 dead bodies of the German 3rd Battalion/95th Security Regiment garrison troops near the school, their bodies badly mutilated. Other bodies were found around the town, bringing the total German dead in Tulle to sixty-four. Next day, the reprisals began. All males in the town were gathered together and 130 suspects were selected for execution. A number were released because of their youth and the remaining 99 were executed by the Pioneer Platoon of SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 2. Their bodies were hung up on lamp-posts and from balconies along the main streets of the town in the hope that the hanging bodies would deter future attacks by the Maquis and the FTP.

Oradur

2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich' was ordered to make its way across country to the fighting in Normandy. Along the way it came under constant attack and sabotage from the French Resistance. Allegedly, SS soldiers were further angered by finding atrocities committed by some resistants; in particular, a German ambulance in which all the wounded had been killed and the driver and assistants tied to the cab before the vehicle was set on fire. No record of this alleged incident exists in German records.

Early on the morning of June 10 Sturmbannführer Otto Dickmann reported to Sturmbannführer Otto Weidinger that he had been approached by two French civilians who claimed that a high German official was being held by the French Resistance guerilla, the maquis, in Oradour. That day he was to be executed and publicly burnt amidst celebrations. The two French civilians also stated that the whole population was working with the maquis and that high ranking leaders were there at the moment. At about the same time the SD in Limoges reported that their local informers had reported a maquis headquarters in Oradour. The high German official was belived to be Sturmbannfuhrer Helmut Kampfe, a personal friend of both Dickmann and Weidinger who had been captured by the maquis the day before. Kampfe is listed in SS records as "Missing in southern France in action against terrorists"






I´m moving on very thin ice now, if I (as a german) try to explain reasons for massacres not excuse or justify done by germans (especially by the Waffen-SS). But I think there are two different kinds of massacres done by the W-SS:

I.) Massacres like Wormhout, La Paradis, Malmedy and many murderd canadian PoWs in normandy. These all were CRIMES, I feel sry for it and I can´t understand, how normal people can shoot surrendering and more or less innocent humans. And it proves that the W-SS was fanaticaly.

II.) Massacres like Oradur Sûr-Glane and Tulle. Also CRIMES, but I can understand them, because there were total different circumstances. They saw german wounded, who were burned in the ambulance trucks and they heard by french that those, who are responsible for that were in the next village (Oradur). Or the massacre by the Resistance in Tulle, murdering 64 german soldiers (badly mutilated).

I can also understand the french, who did that after 4 years of fear.

I´ve come to conclusion that the whole WW2 was shit, senseless and it´s crazy to discuss about murdering, it seems that I can understand everyone who did massacres is this mad? I can understand that the Resistance murderd germans after 4 years of fear, but I can also understand the Waffen-SS, which reacted in some locations. Ahhhhh, what world are we livin´ in? I think I will looking for a new hobby, somethin´without military and war. -.-