Best German Special units

Think you mean the Battle of Jena-Auerstedt, yes prussia lost this battle and the war. But one year later in 1813 and thx to russia we got it, however always under command by a prussian general.

Schlacht an der Katzbach 1813 (Prussian, Russian Victory) preußischer Generalfeldmarschall Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher

Schlacht von Großbeeren 1813 (Prussian, Russian Victory) General Friedrich Wilhelm Freiherr von Bülow

Schlacht an der Göhrde 1813 (Prussian, Russian Victory) Graf Wallmoden

Völkerschlacht bei Leipzig 1813 (Prussian, Russian, Austrian and Swedish Victory) Friedrich Wilhelm III. (P), Alexander I. Pawlowitsch (R), Karl Philipp Fürst zu Schwarzenberg (A) and Karl XIV. Johann (S)


Prussia often fought against armys twice and more their strength and won. Just a few examples of prussians gloria. You can not be focused on one battle and then come to conclusion that prussias army wasn´t that good as Al Amin said.

Battle of Zorndorf 1758 (Prussian Victory)

Prussia:
39,000 (12,797 dead or wounded)
167 guns (26 guns lost)

Russia:
58,500 (18,500 dead or wounded)
210 guns (all guns lost)

Battle of Rossbach 1757 (Prussian Victory)

Prussia:
21,000 (550 dead or wounded)
58 guns

France:
42,000 (3,000 dead or wounded, 5,000 captured)
156 guns



Battle of Leuthen 1757 ( Prussian Victory)

Prussia:
39,000 (6,382 dead or wounded)
167 guns

Austria:
58,500 (9,000-10,000 dead or wounded, 12,000 captured)
210 guns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:B ... of_Prussia

 

That's 7 years later, isn't it?
Never again in the Napoleonic Wars was an army as totally crushed than the prussians at Jean/Auerstedt.
Within 1-2 weeks Prussia was totally occupied, only opposing symbolic resistance.

And the deciding moment of the battle was Maréchal Davout's attack at Auerstedt against the main body of the prussian army.
In less than an hour, Davout's 27.000 men routed 55.000 prussians(in presence of the King of Prussia), which later retreated in disorder.

Even Napoléon could not believe this when a messenger of Davout announced it to him, and he responded:
"Tell your Maréchal that he is seing double....".

These however are hardly prussian, but allied victories.
On other occasions in march 1813, Napoléon defeated the allies, especially at Lützen and Bautzen.
Still many think that Napoleons biggest mistake in that campaign was accepting the truce of Plaswitz, (Truce which the allies use tio bring Austria in the war)rather than exploiting his victories.

So did France which was outnumbered during most battles of the Napoleonic times.

I am not doubting that the prussian army was good, but I doubt it was the best at that time.




[

Prussias victories in the 7 years war are surely impressive however one must remember that it's ennemies fought on Prussias soil, far away from their supply bases in hostile country.
Also Fredericks victories are nearly always defensive victories, and seldomly achieve a strategic result by following the beaten ennemy into his territory.
Napoleons victories against all odds in the 1814 french campaign, against vastly superior allied forces(Brienne, La Rothière, Champaubert, Montmirail, Château Thierry, Vauchamps, Montereau, Craonne....)are as impressive.

 

Most of the time their tactics and weapons were simultaneously being developed elsewhere. It is merely an emphasis on German secret weapons in modern sources that makes them stand out so much.

 

Such as?

The strategic bomber? Nope, they never had an effective heavy bomber.
The aircraft carrier? Never completed a single example.
The ICBM? Not really, even the V-2 (Arguably the fore-runner of the ICBM) was really little more than long ranged artillery.
Nuclear/Atomic weapons? Nope, not even close.
The Jet fighter? Simultaneously being developed by Britain and slightly later the US.
The Assault Rifle? Nope, that was the Federov Avtomat of Tsarist Russia.
The tank? Invented by Britain.

The main thing Germany pioneered was effective armoured warfare tactics and combined arms warfare, and they did so in very impressive way, one that maximised the effectiveness of their equipment far beyond the capabilities of their opponents.

But you really cannot say that they built the weapons for the following decades.

 

oh yes i can say that i dont want to discuss every single weapon of germany anyways i dont know why when i say the tiger was the best tank you are comming with no to complicated and heavy or the me-262 to me it seems you cant accept that the germans were the non plus ultra military of the 20th century i can surley clear out every point you brought up go and ask every assault rifle specialist and everybody will tell you that the stg-44 was the first true assault rifle compared to todays standard
i also have noproblem to confess that britaain was the non plus ultra in naval affairs till end of ww2 or the romans or huns etc so why can you not accept that the german had to most effectiv military machine by skill full soldiers skillfull general staff and best tanks subs planes missle etc and the reason they lost is only because of Hitler he was the reason for the war and he was the reason for germanys defeat and NOT a bad eqitment generals or soldiers or is it cause youn are british
my aunt lives in arrington near cambridge and when i was a boy i always bought war comics and magazines i couldent understand but i always saw a dozen of stiff necked dirty brits taking out a whole german battaillon or two spits wiping a german air group from the skies the german always act stupid and foolish and had a bad eqitment and not only in magazines also on tv cinema etc and i belived it
trough all my child hood i thought the germans were the most silly and incompenet soldiers of the world with low quality weapons but as a juvenile i started to read good authentic books and watched documentarys wich changed my mind about the german military compitly so maybe you must been reading the wrong books or is it just a matter of national feeling that you cant accept that german military and engeniiring skills were simply better than britains how can a person just let nothing good on german soldiers and equitment like you simon

 

Al amin please stop with the whole british attidtude thing everyone is entitled to their opinions. I believe that the Germans had some good stuff and i believe we had some good stuff. the assualt rifle invention is debatable. yes it is the common theory that the StG44 was the first assualt rifle but the question is what makes an assualt rifle an assualt rife? the idea of an intermediate cartridge was invented by the americans and the idea of selective fire weapons has been around for many years before the StG44.
Comic books are to please public opinion and same with films so you cannot base the attitude of a nation on fictional literature

 

Al amin wrote:

Code:

or is it cause youn are british 
my aunt lives in arrington near cambridge and when i was a boy i always bought war comics and magazines i couldent understand but i always saw a dozen of stiff necked dirty brits taking out a whole german battaillon or two spits wiping a german air group from the skies the german always act stupid and foolish and had a bad eqitment and not only in magazines also on tv cinema etc and i belived it 
trough all my child hood i thought the germans were the most silly and incompenet soldiers of the world with low quality weapons but as a juvenile i started to read good authentic books and watched documentarys wich changed my mind about the german military compitly so maybe you must been reading the wrong books or is it just a matter of national feeling that you cant accept that german military and engeniiring skills were simply better than britains how can a person just let nothing good on german soldiers and equitment like you simon

Lol..I nominate this tirade as possibly the worst example of debate of the past year

Grieg--> *accepting his forthcoming warning from the mod to keep it impersonal*
I know, I know..I just couldn't help myself

 

Al Amin, Simon is presenting you with obvious facts about the development of various weapons during the 20th Century, and you try to brush these facts aside by assuming a certain attitude in him? That doesn't make any sense. Now if you can prove, with simple facts, not the opinions of "specialists" who simply aren't infallible, that it was Germany that dominated the 20th century military world, I shall be happy to hear it. However this will not be possible because it quite simply isn't true that they were as superb as you claim; they were merely effective. This was not due to superior equipment most of the time but due to training and leadership compared to the training and leadership of their enemies. It is very important to put their achievements in the light of the inadequacies of the armies they faced.

Stop assuming things about other members, you will insult them if you go on like this.

Grieg: I noticed you already caught yourself at it. Just try to control yourself...

 

You are wrong Al Amin, and don't you dare patronise me by suggesting that my knowledge stems from action comics. :angry:

Your claim was that the German military built the weapons for the following decades, they did not. Their equipment whilst in some cases representing advancements in technology (Such as the Me262), had serious failings in those cases due to the desperation to get it into production. You should have noticed when I have debated the Me262 with you before that I often mention that it represented the future of fighter aircraft, but that in its actual incarnation it suffered from serious defects and was not unbeatable.

In many areas German technology and equipment was advanced, the Stg44 represented possibly the best infantry personal weapon of the war, equally it is true however that just as not every tank in Normandy was a Tiger, the Stg44 was far from the typical weapon of the German infantryman, to the end of the war that was still the Kar98K, possibly the oldest of the infantry rifles at that time. Equally if you regard the assault rifle as the future of infantry firearms in 1945 (I would agree with you), the Tsarist Russians invented it, not the Germans. Just because it didn't look like an AK47 the Federov Avtomat was no less an assault rifle than the Stg44 and about 50 years older.

Equally in other areas German technology was remarkably lacking. They failed to develop the Atomic and Nuclear weaponary that was to dominate international relations for the next 50 years.

They failed to develop an effective long range strategic bomber.

They failed to sail a single aircraft carrier, which arguably dominates naval war to this day.

They flew the first jet fighter, true, only days ahead of the British and the US jet fighter of the war (Some examples were in Italy prior to VJ day), the P-80 was a far superior fighter to any jet fighter built by the Germans.

There is no denying the fighting ability of the German servicemen. In Len Deighton's Blitzkreig he refers to how a British or French platoon cut off would typically surrender after the last officer had been killed, a German platoon would fight until the last NCO (Corporal) had been killed. I don't know how accurate this is, but I'm willing to trust Deighton's expertise. Would a British or French platoon trained to the same standards be as good? I don't know, but I wouldn't be inclined to suggest that the British men or Frenchmen were any less likely to respond to the same training regimen as a German man.

The Germans trained hard, and fought hard, they were undeniably a force to be reckoned with.

In terms of armoured warfare doctrine and (Certainly in 1940) aerial tactics they were far and away ahead of the British at the time. It was these doctrines, tactics and training that made them superior on the battlefield and in the air. Not an inherent superiority of German designers or fighting men as a whole.

If you wish to carry on believing in the myth of the Aryan superman and uber-designer who outdid everyone else in every respect, fine, that's up to you. That is a viewpoint I do not subscribe to, it is a viewpoint that others on this forum do not subscribe to, and it is one that I do not believe is borne out by actual history.

But do not insult me by suggesting that my opinions, views and knowledge come from comic books. :angry:

 

i dont want to insult anybody but i spend only a couple of weeks in britain during my childhood and i was absorbing every kind of military information ,museum ,comic, films etc with the result that i tought the german military was dumb incompetent brutal evil and ALWAYS loose when they went to combat and this over years so i must ask my self what would you think about german military if you even grew up their insead a few weeks of the year i was in britain several times and the tenor is that there is not much said about the impact of the yanks or even the russians it leaves the impression that Britain handeld Germany mostly alone chasing their subs through the sea bombing them out etc and later i found out that Britain was only the usa and russian sidekick wich played the third role in this theater

 

Why did I say one year ?! Sry, perhaps I should pay more attention in math

Perhaps not in the napoleonic wars, you´re right, but in the 7th years war they showed great military tactics and outstanding soldiers with excellent commanders. I guess it was the same in 1870 during the battle of Sedan ???


I don´t wanna say that the french or the british army wasn´t good, of course they had great soldiers too ( many soldiers of the british army were germans of the Kings German Legion hehe )

Well, it´s not prussia, but Hannover, all in all it´s germany. I would like to say that germany had many great soldiers and generals and a military history, which I can be proud of it. But I also respect the french army, an army with courageous leaders and soldiers.

 

I have enough intelligence not to believe what I read in comic books, I would have hoped you would have realised that. I read, I evaluate and I use my own knowledge and intelligence to form opinions on things rather than accepting propaganda myths wholesale.

Britain was the US and Soviet Union's Sidekick? Excuse me? Care to back this up? Especially considering the Soviet Union for nearly the first two years was Germany's sidekick!

Choose your words carefully Al Amin, they are appearing perhaps more insulting than you realise.

 

I totally agree.

[/quote][/quote]

Of course you can.

 

what do you mean simon when you are a kid and you are intreeted in war you belive what you read and see
to me britain was so cool as a kid so many militarty books comics air shows toys and museums i spend more time in duxfort then any where else what britain got to offer about war i took it
but with the result that i have a compled wrong picture of the second world war because i was a victim of british post ww2 glorification of the uk
with usa and russia as junior partners playing a small role and the most incompetent opponent in the world the germans waiting to get slaughterd in masses by a few brits

 

When I was a kid, maybe, I am 27 now, I have grown up. I understand the difference between fact and fiction. I have read the Harry Potter books too. Does that mean I must believe that in the English countryside is a secret school for Witches and Wizards?

I also lived for 16 years of my childhood in Germany, in 1986 when I was 8 I cheered the German football team during the World cup as much as I did the English one, because in some ways I felt as German as I did British, perhaps because I spent two years in a German Kindergarten and I went shopping in German shops.

My experience of Germany is far more extensive than your experience of Britain.

Do not tell me that my opinions are blinkered by national pride, my upbringing and comic books. I grew up in Germany and am proud of that.

 

and did you find the same kind of stupid war propaganda there no because in germany you must search if you want to learn something about war and you dont getting bombed with nonsense war storys about a Fallschirmjäger squad taking out a hole regiment (oops forgot eben emael)
so you cant tell me that you know all about ww2 with 7 or 8 years

 

lôl, Al Amin, if you read Asterix and Obelix would you believe that two (french) men can defeat some roman legions

hmm, however I guess rather german can do such things during the Varus-battle in 9 nChr.
Destroying three legions ( XVII, XVIII, XIX) with 20.000 roman soldiers and many of their support troops.

Quintili Vare, legiones redde!

@all

(Don´t take this post to serious )

 

sure i belived it i also belived at the christmas man and in batman and many others and as i was getting older i learned that it is nonsense like most of the stuff i recived in britain
as i said in germany it is totally different there is no wehrmacht glorification

 

No.

I am telling you that I am 27. I moved to Germany when I was 2 and left when I was 18. I didn't find stupid war propoganda there but I do find in some ways German propaganda repeated in modern publications, usually not German ones, I did read some British comics of course and I learned the difference between fact and fiction.

I never felt inherently inferior to the Germans, I never felt that Germans were inherently more intelligent than me or stronger than me. I am saying that as someone who lived in Germany, alongside Germans. For 16 years, not seven or eight. I have grown and matured, I form my own opinions, mine certainly are not carbon-copied from Commando Comics.

I know what the German Army and Luftwaffe did to the BEF and the Advanced Air Striking Force, they ruined them. That was more tactics and training than equipment, the Germans knew what to do with their kit in 1940 far better than the British or French.

That doesn't make them better designers, better engineers or better men as a whole. It does not mean that they invented the weapons of the late 20th Century, they did not. The most prominent weapons of the late 20th Century were almost exclusively not German inventions.

 

Unfortunately not.

hmm, but germany had superior battlecruisers and -ships (guns, trained soldiers to avoid that the RN could cross the T and they had better protection ) during WW1 >>>>Battle of Skagerak. But you´re right that does not make them better men, but outstanding ones. It seems to become a german is superior to everyone thread.