What was the most famous/infamous army of world war two?

Greig,

I think we're in almost violent agreement here
Let me start off by saying I live in Montreal, so I'm a little emotionally engaged as far as Dieppe goes.

Dieppe was an umitigated disaster, poorly planned, badly supported and horribly executed. There were no significant lessons learned that saved 10:1 at Normandy as was later claimed. It was a waste of the majority of a good division. But none of that was due to a lack of valour, courage and dedication of the troops involved.

The two Canadian brigades at Dieppe were roughly equivalent to the two Marine regiments used at Tarawa. There regiments (six battalions) of German infantry is the fighting component of an entire German infantry division, and they had full artillery support as well as costal guns with signifiacnt reserves available, although never needed. The Japanese had two good battalions (2619 men) and two support (2217) units at Betio. But I give you the 302nd was a second rate division spread over 50 miles of coast, although concentrated at Dieppe, with one reinforced regiment, about 1,500 infantry, in and around the town. When Dieppe was assualted in August 1942 the Germans had had two years to prepare. The Germans assumed a port would be the objective of any allied landing and prepared their defenses accordinlgly. The Japanese didn't actually start building defenses on Betio until after the Carlson raid, interestingly enough also in August 1942 and a screw up, but they then went at it with a vengance. As I said earlier the description you gave of the Betio defenses could be used word for word to describe the German defenses at Dieppe (good thing you didn't mention the coconut logs!). The terrain at Dieppe also worked heavily in the defenders favor, there were high bluffs and cliffs (with caves) providing great observation and fields of fire, not unlike Omaha, and totaly unlike three foot high Betio. The beach exits were steep and blocked and covered. The beach itself was wet slippery stones (which fragmented very nicely), not smooth sand and totally unsuited for tanks. The sea wall at Dieppe was open to flanking fire. The Germans had been alerted and were ready and waiting when the landing forces arrived. In my mind, terrain and disparity in the levels of naval and air support make the numbers game a wash when trying to compare Dieppe and Tarawa.
The assaulting forces at Dieppe itself were three infantry battalions and one tank battalion, with another infantry battlion in reserve. Another battlion attempted to land at Puys and two at Pourville. The landings were late and disorganized, with troops landing at the wrong beaches et al. The two Commando battlion flank attacks at Berneval and Varengeville were successful, but faced only company strength opposition until they reached the gun batteries. The landing at Pourville (Green) were semi successful, the troops being able to get off the beaches. The main landings at Dieppe beach and Puy never had a chance and were stopped cold, with only a handful of men making it off the beach. The raid was over in six hours because it was obvious it couldn't succeed. After six hours the troops ashore were either dead, wounded and out of supply and communication. They had persevered to death, there was no way they could have established a beach head, or captured the port, the raid's objective. In any case the troops were all to have been on the way back to England before nightfall in any case. Had the intention been to stay and had more troops been available, it may have been possible to land them on the flanks.
I think the the last 800+ Japanese killed on Betio (375 in the banzai and 425 in the 45 minute cleanup drive) would have surrendered had they been western. This was the point of my dig at the banzai charge, not that I didn't know the Canadians were the attackers at Dieppe or that the Japanese were defending at Tarawa. One last numbers game: the Marines had 837 killed at Tarawa, the Canadians had 962 killed at Dieppe. And that doesn't include the Commandoes or US Rangers.

One last thing:

Thanks, I take that as quite a compliment.

 

We differ some on our interrpretation and how much emphasis we place on certain facts but we agree on all the fundamental facts.
Let me say it is a pleasure to have a spirited debate with someone who has done their research. We don't have to spend pages just clearing up misconceptions about the basic facts.
I think we have just about exhausted this subject and without anyone getting insulted and leaving in a huff

 

canambridge(Tim) and Grieg:
I too have enjoyed this thread, both of your postings, and the exchange of information. I do not consider myself as well informed on the Dieppe Raid as the landings at Tarawa/Betio. I do appreciate the information and insights shared.
I have commented on the Dieppe raid in the past, attempting to give credit to the learning-curve of amphibious landings as somehow justifying the lives lost there. I'ts difficult for me to accept the fact that lives were recklessly thrown-away on a buggered-up raid for no good reason.
I hope I have never left the impression I thought any less of the Canadian troops efforts, nor their heroism in the face of such withering-fire.
Photos of the beach--after action--showed numerous Churchills knocked-out at the shoreline. Was this one of the first instances where Churchills were utilized?
With their unique suspension and track design, were Churchills any less mobile in this beach-terrain than any other available (Allied) tank in service at this time? Would Shermans have been a better choice, or were they simply not available in sufficient numbers for the raid?
Not that I think it would have made any difference in the ultimate outcome of the raid, but on Tarawa, Shermans were unloaded far from the beach and picked their way over a coral reef--carefully attempting to dodge balsted-out holes with the guidance of infantry--in manuvering into action. The Sherman also had a reputation as one of the best "hill-climbers" of the war.

Tim

 

Probably not - the problem that they faced was that their tracks could not get an effective grip on the pebble beach, and I doubt that any other tank would have fared better. They were issued with small 'bobbins' for laying canvas across the shingle, but this seems to have somehow not been sufficient. Does anybody have any more info on this?


The Churchill also aquired a formidable reputation as a hill-climber.

 

The first, as far as I know. They were first used with the regular British army in Tunisia in 1943, where they earned a reputation that saved the design from being taken out of production. I believe there had also been some fighting with two or three specimens prior to this, though, but I'm not sure.

Famously the Germans first got their hands on a Churchill by picking it off the beach at Dieppe, and they were quite underwhelmed. They found nothing but flaws in the design and believed that the British would swiftly stop making the whole thing.

 

2nd Marine Division

 

Also, Hitler didn't forget to comment that incident by appreciating the British kindness for exhibiting to their enemies their new tanks.

 

See, we agree again!

I believe Dieppe was the first combat use of the Churchill. The Sherman didn't start production unitl February 1942, so it would have been just possible for the very first units to make it, but the numbers available would have been very small.
I believe the Sherman's combat debut was at El Alamein, and that only at the expense of stripping US 1st & 2nd Armored Divisons, losses which still hadn't been made up by February 1943.
The Churchill had a great reputation as a hill climber, one of the problems at Dieppe was that the beach rocks (shingle) got caught between the treacks and rollers jamming or breaking htem. German AT fire didn't help either. 28 of 30 tanks were landed and about half the tanks actually did get off the beach and over/through the wall onto the promenade, but all the exits were blocked and the engineers to clear the way were unable to move up to remove them.

It is indeed a hard truth to accept. At least the Germans learned some wrong lessons.

 

was there a naval or air failure at dieppe ,intelegence ,security?..seems to be some mutterings about all of above....

 

Canambridge, actually Adolf Hitler said it -- he didn't write it.

...Except if this forum hides something...

 

True AH only said it, but I'm not clever enough with the forum to know how to chnage 'wrote' to 'said'

There were all kinds of failures in Jubilee.
Air - No heavy bombardment of defenses, no real air ground coordination, not even the level the Germans had in 1940.
No paratroop drop as orignailly planned for Rutter (and also in large part responsible for Rutter's demise)
Naval - no heavy warships or prolonged bombardment, the RN didn't want to rsik losing a major unit in the channel.
Intelligence - Same target troops had had been briefed for Rutter, I believe LW had recon showing ship concentrations. bad luck in running into a German coastal covoy on the way in, about two hours before the assault. Germans were on high alert anyway as weather, tides adn moon were all conducive.
Tactics - main assault at heart of enemy defenses, flank attacks only light forces to cover main force. Result was Somme like charge into MGs and guns. One German platoon (~50 men) at Puys effectively eliminated a Canadian battalion. Excuse was that there wasn't enough time to land on the flanks and attack the town from the land side and still leave the same day. Monty okayed the head on for Rutter before going to 8th Army. He was very relieved when Rutter was cancelled.
Plenty of shame for everyone involved.

 

It could be worse. I haven't managed yet to fit in the quote the names, i.e. "Canambridge wrote:...."(as you can see above...)

 

Well, now you can, by reading this thread:

http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4652

It is in fact very easy to do. Instead of the regular opening quote tag:

Code:

[quote]

You enter the following tag:

Code:

[quote="name of member you are quoting"]

This will show as "(whatever you entered) wrote:", and so you can also enter "I wrote" or "You wrote" or anything simply by entering the appropriate text in the opening quote tag. The closing quote tag will be the same as usual:

Code:

[/quote]

 

Yep,finally i figured it out a couple of days before.

 

The most famous army was the British 8th Army and his counterpart the German Afrika Korps, they were commended by two of most famous Generals of The World War II

 

Intelligence and really crappy naval support are two of the biggest. Security is probably the most but I've yet to find something that says it outright (although starting the exact same operation with only a different name only a couple of months after the first one was cancelled.....)