Myth buster threads: comments

It would be nice to have a discussion in that thread, but then I'll make a comment here.

In a report which Speer made in September and October 1944, it is mentioned that the German tanks are outnumbered ten to one. Perhaps this is a source of the ten-to-one-myth?

 

The ten-to-one myth was about the Tiger making ten kills to one loss. If the figure you mention was the cause of this myth, then all Allied tanks had to have been destroyed by the end of WW2. Otherwise there is no relation between the amount of tanks in service and the amount actually destroyed by the actions of Tigers.

Then again, drop a figure somewhere and someone will distort it.

 

Exactly. While statistics can be bad, pseudo-statistics are pure evil.

 

Minor correction on the Sherman article.

The M10 had the 3in AT gun, the M36 was the only 90mm armed GMC.

 

Thanks Eric, I corrected that error and moved the M10 to where Ricky mentioned the 76mm.

 

Specifically the 3-in. Gun M7 in a Mount M5 (refer to TM 9-2300)

 

I suggest that sources be posted on the Myth Busters threads. If not, they are not worth anything in my eyes.

 

The only thing I thinkis missing from the Sheramn thread is it's reliabiltiy and ease of maintnance.

One of the myths that should be busted is that the Tigers or Panther were ever really relaible. I don't think anyone has ever claimed they were easy to maintain (especially with the Nazi policy of producing complete vehicles at the expense of spare parts).

The Tiger may have been more relaible than the KV-1, and admittedly the intial problems of the Tigers (I believe the Tiger I was always automotively better than the Tiger II) and Panther were addressed to the level that they could be deployed in combat, but I don't think they ever came near the levels of the Sherman.

One drawback of the Tiger that is frequently overlooked is the sheer size and bulk of the beast. This resulted in tactical problems (ripping up roads and being unable to use many bridges) and strategic problems (notably rail movement, the main method of long distance movement for tanks) due to weight (56 tons! close to two Shermans) and size (too wide for railcars and tunnel/bridge clearances).

 

The wet storage (W) versions of the Sherman started produciton in January 1944. Total production of all four "W" variants was 11,254. Wet stowage was intially introduced for the 76mm gun models and the later 75mm models.

The 76mm gun versions of the Shermans also stared production in January 1944, 10,882 were produced. They didn't begin to appear in combat until August 1944 and not in large numbers until November.

The M4A2 was the primary diesel engined version of the Sherman, with 8,053 produced. Used in US service only by the USMC, most went to lend lease. Then M4A6 was also diesel powered, but only 75 were ever built between October 1943 and February 1944.

One drawback of the Sherman that is not often mentioned often is the large turning radius, 9.5m compared to 4.5 for the Panther.

Other advantages of the Sherman include the gyro-stabilized gun (apparently not frequently used by the crews) and rapid turret traverse.

 

can't a tank turn on the spot by definition of it's tracks and gearing?

FNG

 

The Tiger could be transported for large distances by rail with their combat tracks, so the transport tracks weren't as big a problem as many people think.

 

I think it's a myth that tigers were hard to move. They fitted on trains and once on a rail car they could go virtually anywhere the railway went.

Give me an hour and I'll post some pictures of Tigers on railcars

FNG

 

Whoa! Peace! I'm not claiming Tigers weren't moved by rail. Just that is was more difficult and required more specialized equipment and sometimes more circuitous routes than for smaller, lighter tanks.l
There is no question Tigers were transported by rail. You don't need to spend an hour or five minutes to convince me. They couldn't necessarily go "anywhere the railway went" in a direct route in all cases, for the same reasons that affect the shippment of oversized, overweight loads on railroads today. Talk to someone who works in a shipping planning organization, it's not as straighforward and easy as you would think.

 

Tigers on a train. all they needed to do is switch the tracks and load them up like any other tank.

There would be few places that they couln't go by train.

FNG

 

These threads are a compilation of the knowledge our members have brought together over the past two years. They represent the pool of our knowledge and the consensus we have reached in our discussions on the tanks in question. In order to provide sources for them (which would indeed enhance their credibility) we would need to know all sources all members who ever contributed to this forum's Tanks section ever used, and which of these have been more valuable than others. The impossibility of this should be obvious. Consider the Library section as a list of sources used by the forum community.

Meanwhile, I would not consider the result of the combined efforts of this forum's members over more than two years "not worth anything".

Canambridge: good point about the Tiger's huge weight - more than two T34s, in fact. I will have Ricky have a look at your posts to see what he thinks should be included in his Mythbuster threads. Just one minor point, the 76mm-armed Sherman first appeared on the Western Front on July 22nd 1944, not August.

 

FNG
That photograph isactually showing the Tigers with combat tracks on.

 

Indeed it is not. But at first glance, it could be seen as "just another statement" to contradict various other biased statements.

I am sure that there are a host of reliable, general sources that will back up the statements. Examples are the Panzer Tracts books.

 

The Tigers in that picture fit almost perfectly on the train car, but seems to extend a small bit.

 

We can't see the other side, though.

 

Well than try to get the dimentions on the most common WWII era transport car for a train. (Seriously I dont know the proper name for them). Than you can compare to the width of the Tiger, dosent that sound fun? Dont think Im gonna do it, i dont evan knwo what the railway carts are called.