Info on armor used by 17th S.S. PGs

Hi guys..

Glad someone took the time to create a forum based on tanks and WWII!

My questions for the experts are:

What AFVs specifically did the 17th S.S. Panzergrenadiers use from their inception to their surrender? I've looked high and low on the Internet and can't find that kind of detailed info.
I know all about the order of battle and I also know that they used alot of StuG Gs.
I do know that they had to round up alot of French vehicles right before D-Day and that they were short on alot of vehicles. Which begs the question; "Where did they get their 1/2 tracks?!"

ALSO... What camoflage schemes (if any) were used on the 1/2 tracks and tanks? I've heard conflicting accounts of Dunkel Gelb to standard Feldgrau to some that were painted solid BROWN!
If you've seen the Band of Brothers episode "Carentan" you'll see a Stug, a 1/2 track and even a Marder III in the ending battle scene and if I'm not mistaken the stug is dunkel gelb and the 1/2 track and marder are Feldgrau.

I'm looking for any kind of numbering scheme they used as well.

Basically, you're talking to a wargamer who likes his armies historically accurate.
I do alot of Flames of War and currently I'm working on some material for the parent company for the new late war release.

Any help guys would be greatly appreciated and I always mention folks (in print) that have something to do with my research.

Thanks guys and keep your arse down! You might get it shot off one day!

Rock.

 

Hey Rock!

I play FOW too. Sorry I don't know what the answers to your questions are but I would bet somebody here does.

 

I was going throught the references on the 17SS on wikipedia and I found a name of a book that might help

never read it know nothing about it but it might help you find what your looking for.

 

Danke

Thanks Gunter and thanks to the fellow SEC fan in Alabama!
Yes, I have that book currently on order!

Been going thru www.missinglynx.com and they have some wonderfully painted tanks. The attention to detail leaves one speechless!
I think I might be going with the "Ambush Pattern" which was used right before, during and after the Normandy invasion.
For those who haven't seen that particular camoflage, it's basically Dunkel Gelb (Dark yellow base) with dark green and intermingling reddish-brown.
There were so many patterns used after 1943! Dots, large splotches of green and brown.

What amazes me so much is...
if a German professor was the one who invented the camo pattern used on the smocks used by the waffen then why wasn't that pattern duplicated in greater detail on the tanks? I know the predominant colors are there in alot of cases but it just seems to make more sense.

Oh well, I still have a few more questions yet to be answered.

Thanks and I'm glad I registered with the forum!

Rock

 

Sorry for not being more of a help but Good Luck.

 

ROLL TIDE!

I would think it was too time and material consuming to put complex camo patterns on vehicles.

 

Pasties for the 1/2 tracks

Hey Calhoun..

From the research I've done so far, (and I'm speaking solely from a post D-Day perspective) The AFVs that came out of the factories were primed in a dull dark yellow and then tins of pigmentsed paste were provided in the field for the soldiers to paint on themselves. WHen it was available gasoline or diesel fuel was mixed with the paste. Most times though it was mixed with water, which didn't last too long. This was a good thing because the soldiers could vary the pattern from terrain to terrain and from season to season.

I've learned that the most predominant colors were dark green and red brown and they would actually put light dots in the dark spaces(white or dull white) with dark brown dots in the lighter spaces.
Yes, this was time consuming but according to the main body that produced the scheme it was the best. They called it "Ambush Pattern" and it's quite easy to look up on the net.
After doing all this research you'de think I would come across a site that would tell me how many and what AFVs where assigned to the 17th S.S. PGs! But the internet is a vast monster to conquer.

If anyone has any suggestions I'm open..

Thanks for responding guys..

Rock.

 

Hey Rock,

It is true that German divisions in France were often equipped with French tanks or converted tanks on French chassis. On the other hand, as reported by disgruntled German Heer officers in France, the SS divisions were generally given priority when it came to replacing lost vehicles, in spite of the fact that the SS divisions often lacked the manpower to crew the new vehicles. It is therefore quite likely that the 17th SS was equipped with a rather greater number of German-made and newly produced tanks and vehicles than the Heer divisions.

I must admit, though, that in his evaluation of the Panzer divisions under his command on June 6th, Von Schweppenburg (commanding the armoured reserve, Panzergruppe West) comments on the 17th SS merely "Materiel was poor." He states that while OKH had selected 1st SS, 12th SS, 17th SS and the Panzer Lehr as armoured reserve, he would himself have chosen 2nd Panzer, 12th SS, 11th Panzer or 9th SS and Panzer Lehr (that is, mostly Heer divisions instead of SS units).

I know this doesn't give you anything real to work with...

As far as I know, the French did not build any halftracks, and so the 17th SS's Panzergrenadier regiments will have to have been equipped with Sd.Kfz.251s or nothing at all.

 

The French led the world in half-track development in the 1920s and 1930s.

The only transport half-track that I can find used by the French army was the P107 Half-track



The only other half-track used was the truely ugly Panhard Schneider Kegresse AMC P-16 Armoured car


(all pictures from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/ )

 

Interesting!

To Roel and Ricky..

Wow... I am learning some things I didn't know!
Concerning French vehicles.. I had it in my mind that the 17th would
have been scrounging the French countryside from late '43 to April '44
looking for trucks and field cars. I never realized they would have even
considered using French armored vehicles to defend Normandy and Brittany with! I wonder why then would they reduce production of basic logistic type vehicles. Is this another reason why they lost the war? Failure to place logistics high on the list?
You know...
I've read were some soldiers in the 17th had to ride bicycles to the front!

One would think that in preparation for the coming allied onslaught the OHK would have placed a higher priority on getting supplies to the various logistical points especially while in a defensive mode.

Thanks for the info gentlemen.. Any info is better than no info.

We'll get there and when I find out I'll post it here..

Rock

 

Vehicles with 17.Pz.Gren.Div. as of 1945-01-15

Code:

Pz.Kpfw.38(t)             2
Pz.Kpfw.IV L/48          21
Panzer IV/70              4
Flakpanzer IV             8
Panther                  24
Pz.Bef.Wg.                1
Beob.Pz.IV                1
Marder 38T                1
Jagdpanzer IV             1
Sturmgeschütz III L/48   29
Sturmgeschütz IV         18
le.Pz.Späh.Wg. (MG)       2
le.Pz.Späh.Wg. (2 cm)     1
s.Pz.Späh.Wg. (2 cm)      3
le SchPzWg (various)      2
m PiPzWg                  1
Bergepanzer III           1

 

all german divisions were short of logistics trucks which was handy to a point as they had limited fuel to put in them anyway.

Most german divisions had considerable numbers of horses and "aqusitioned" civilian vehicles along with captured trucks of opposing forces.

I believe the Das Reich Div in June 44 had plans to steel the local transport when their orders to move were given.

FNG

 

This happened regularly in Western Europe since most railroads were unusable due to air attack and sabotage by the Resistance. Trucks themselves were also often destroyed by the Allied tactical air forces. Therefore many times German divisions on the move were forced to confiscate means of transportation from civilians, including horse-drawn carriages and bycicles.

By the way, British Marine Commandos also carried bycicles with them when they landed in Normandy. They were considered very useful.

Ricky: I had a big fat "d'oh!" experience reading your post.

 

Many thanks!

Hey guys..
Can't begin to thank you all enough!
I've had this request out to several other forums that I frequent
and some fellow on feldgrau.net sent along this link:
Since you guys have been so helpful I thought I would share my
research so far.


http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 351#133351


I'll answer individually on this thread next..

Rock-E-Astounded.

 

DANKE!

CHristian, thank you for the info!

A question as I am not familiar with all of the German abbreviations:

Within the list do you show the SdKfz 251s, 250s (1/2 tracks?)
I would imagine with 2 full regiments they would have many 1/2 tracks yet I don't believe I see any in your list.

Once again thanks!

Rock..

 

They didn't have any APCs at the moment. The only version of the mittlerer Schützenpanzerwagen (Sd Kfz 251/1) they had was the single mittlerer Pionierpanzerwagen (Sd Kfz 251/7)

 

PZGs on footie?

So what you're saying is on 1-15-44 they did not travel about in 1/2 tracks?
When would the 17th been assigned the 251 series SpW?
Or a better question would be:
What was the 1st battle they were in where they used the 251 series?

Thanks CHristian..

Rock

 

You have to remember, that the Waffen-SS units didn't receive as good an as many vehicles, so it would be very possible that they didn't have any at all.

 

With all due respect Christian, I've heard the contrary in some publications,,, that the S.S. Waffen were given the best equipment as soon as it came off the line.
But with respect to the 17th (and the way they were hurriedly formed) I would not doubt the fact they didn't recieve any 1/2 tracks until after April '44.
It does seem ironic though that the term "Panzergrenadiers" is synonomous with "mechanized infantry" and this particular unit would have started without 1/2 tracks!

No wonder they got the crap beaten out of them.. :kill:

Rock.

 

The date provided by Christian are marked as 15-01-1945. At this time the unit was part of 1st Army and in action in the Alsace. Since the division had two organic Panzergrenadier regiments and had been in OBW reserve for a prolonged period (it was originally supposed to be used in the Ardennes), I have a little trouble believing that they had no half-tracks at all in January 1945.

By the way, I don't know when or where it was exactly that the SS recieved equipment of inferior quality to the Heer, but Von Schweppenburg states (like I said) that they would generally recieve more and better equipment than the Heer while stationed in France before D-Day because of Hitler's preference for them.