Info on armor used by 17th S.S. PGs

Am I correct in assuming that there was a production surge in APCs between Nov '43 and APril '44? I do know that there was a change in paint requirements for them in April (that doesn't prove a surge in production) but it does seem to fall in line with the buid-up (in anticipation) of the allied invasion.
Short of photos, after-action reports and or documents of transfer what other way could one find out if they had 1/2 tracks on D-Day?

**the plot thickens**

Rock

 

Rock
It is a common held myth that the Waffen-SS received better equipment, but it doesn't hold true.

When first formed, the Waffen-SS had to make do with old submachine guns, while the Heer got the new M.P.40.

Heer schwere Panzerjäger Abteilungen on average received more Tigers than the Waffen-SS counterparts.

Heer Infanterie-Division (mot.) received tanks before the Waffen-SS divisions.

Heer units were the first to receive Tigers, the Panthers, Tiger IIs and Jagdtigers (and it is uncertain whether the Waffen-SS received any at all of the latter). Heer units also received Ferdinands, Sturmpanzers and Jagdpanthers exclusively.

There has never been presented any reliable evidence in support of the claim that the Waffen-SS was better equipped than the Heer.

Roel
My information is from 'Lage der gepanzerten Kfz' and was compiled by Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppe (published 1945-01-24), so I would consider it fairly accurate.

 

Hmmmm...

I hope I don't encite an argument! It's shaping up to be a good debate..

Actually, for my purposes, *wargaming* it could be very interesting
to create a late-war army list for the 17th that doesn't include 1/2 tracks!


Nyah... Battlefront would want to sell 1/2 track models!

Their late war supplement "Normandy" is coming out this summer and I'm doing a list for the 17th complete with painting guide. Hopefully they'll like what I've wrote up, especially if it can sell models, be historically accurate and fun to compete with.

Rock.

 

I was quoting General der Panzertruppen Geyr von Schweppenburg just now, how reliable a source do you want to have?

Rock, I think you did just stir up a debate, but it seems that Christian is more capable of providing you with the figures, whereas I seem to be more informed about the state of German units on D-Day. You can simply choose the information you need.

 

Personal statements doesn't really have any value if they can'tbe backed up with actual numbers. All the vehicle delively and inventory statistics I've seen only points in one direction - that the Waffen-SS received less equipment, and that the Heer always got the newest toys.

 

Well, he is being very specific. He doesn't claim that the SS always got the latest stuff. What he says about replacement of losses is this:

The Waffen SS had priority as a result of the aid and resources of Himmler or sometimes because of overriding the orders of Hitler. The principle advantage accruing to the Waffen SS was priority on replacements and matériel. (...) The allotment of material was made by the Generalinspektion der Panzertruppen, strongly influenced by Hitler. The latter knew nothing about training and based his evaluation on "Geist" (spirit). He believed this "Geist" to be superior in the SS. In the Fall of 1943 and the Spring of 1944, there were a large number of battle-seasoned tank battalions in France which had come from the Eastern Front and were re-formed. These battalions waited several months for their matériel, whereas some of the SS Panzer divisions had already recieved their matériel, despite a lack of sufficient personnel and trained crews.

(Quoted in Isby, D. (red.), "The German army at D-Day: fighting the invasion" (London 2004), 95-96)

I don't know if you have any data for this specific area and period?

 

I'm not sure but let me take a guess.. Couldn't one find out the truth of the matter by petitioning the after-action reports, logistical records etc... from the German military? OR where most of those records confiscated by the allies after the war? I know the Germans burned alot of records but data such as this should be readily available.
I don't just think I can petition the German military for this.. Someone out there with more clout than I could find this out?

Well, as long as I incite a "debate" and not an argument.

Getting back on topic....
My fellow gamers have often asked, "If you're going to play Germans, why in the world would you want to play the "EVIL S.S."?
Thats an easy question to answer, simply that I wanted to play an outfit that didn't have such an outstanding war record with regard to winning.
It's more challenging to play on the table top.
Does anyone know of a German outfit (After D-Day) that really got the $^1t kicked out of them besides the 17th?

Thanks Guys..
ROUND 3!! DING DING DING!!

Rock-E-Balboa..

 

Roel
It is still a personal statement, based on a (possibly limited) observation.
* Did he have access to all the delivery reports, and did he have these at the time of writing?
* Did he have access to the planned engagements for each unit, and did he have these at the time of writing?
* Did he have access to the strength reports of all the units, and did he have these at the time of writing?
* Was he jealous of the Waffen-SS?
* Are the statements based on diary entries, or are they momeries recalled 60 years after the events took place?
Until such questions are answered satisfactory, the statement can't be regarded as representative.

Vehicles per Pz.Div. on 1944-06-10

Code:

                Heer (6)  Waffen-SS (3)
Pz.Kpfw.III         6.50           0.00
Pz.Kpfw.IV         93.50          65.67
Pz.Kpfw.Panther    34.50          66.00
Sturmgeschütze      3.17          29.00
Total             137.67         120.50

Vehicles per Pz.Gren.Div. on 1944-06-10

Code:

                Heer (0)  Waffen-SS (1)
Sturmgeschütze      0.00             42
Total               0.00             42

Vehicles per I/.Pz.Rgt. on 1944-06-10

Code:

                Heer (7)  Waffen-SS (3)
Pz.Kpfw.Panter     28.57          16.67
Total              28.57          16.67

Vehicles per s.Pz.Abt. on 1944-06-10

Code:

                Heer (1)  Waffen-SS (3)
Pz.Kpfw.Tiger       6.00          32.00
Total               6.00          32.00

Vehicles per Pz.Abt. (incl. Fkl.- and Ers.u.Ausb.Abt.) on 1944-06-10

Code:

                Heer (5)  Waffen-SS (0)
Sturmgeschütze      2.00           0.00
Beutepanzer        35.80           0.00
Total              37.80           0.00

The numbers for Pz.Gren.Div. and Pz.Abt. aren't really useful here, since only one of the two had such units. As a note to the s.Pz.Abt., the Heer unit was s.H.Pz.Abt.10, which didn't receive nearly as many Tiger as the other s.H.Pz.Abt. (the delivery statistics of both Tigers and Tiger IIs for s.Pz.Abt. still favour the Heer units when looking at the total deliveries).

 

Yes, all of them.

Units that got it particularly bad were mostly the Panzer Divisions. Panzer Lehr for example was obliterated in the opening phase of Operation Cobra. 2nd Panzer Division was reduced to a single regiment on December 25th 1944.

The 2nd SS Panzer Corps (9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions) was reduced to less than 10,000 men and a few dozen tanks during the chase through France and Belgium in late August and September 1944. When this unit confronted the British paratroopers during Market-Garden, that single British Airborne division actually outnumbered the SS Panzer Corps.

1st SS Panzer Division's leading unit, Kampfgruppe Peiper, was reduced to a unit of 800 pedestrians in the fighting around Stoumont and La Gleize on 21-23rd December 1944. This represents a casualty rate of about 85%.

 

12. SS should receive an honorary mention for the Falaise gap.

 

Christian - just to confirm (having a dumb moment), the figures you give above for tanks per division - are they averages?

 

Yes, the number of divisions is the number in parantheses next to the branch name, and the number of vehicles is the average for each division in this branch (e.g. there were six Heer divisions, and the total number of Pz.Kpfw.IIIs with Heer divisions was 39, giving an average of 6.5 per division).

 

Rock;
Have you read this thread about the 17th on the FOW forum?
http://fow.flamesofwar.com/viewtopic.php?t=29133

 

Here's a good thread on the subject of what the Waffen SS used compared to the Heer forces:
http://fow.flamesofwar.com/viewtopic.php?t=30026

 

Anyone who might be interested in reliving the "SS always got better equipment debate" would do well to visit Axis History Forum and Feldgrau's forum. This myth has been beaten to death more than once on each of them. Christoph is bloodied, but unbowed!