SMGs - how common were they?

Sparked by Gunter's remark in the M16 vs AK-47 thread, but off-topic there: how common were SMGs in normal "rifle" infantry units by the end of WW2?

In American service as far as I know only officers had Thompsons, and only airborne and armoured units used the M1 Grease Gun. Did the use of these weapons increase at all during the latest stages of the war?

As for the British - Stenguns of various types did become more common among the British troops by the end of WW2, didn't they? I base this purely on pictures and such, I don't actually have a source to support it...

According to Gunter the Germans started using more and more SMGs instead of rifles by the end of the war. Is this true, and if so, does it have anything to do with an increase in urban warfare?

According to Cornelius Ryan in his book The Last Battle, the Russians equipped their infantry uniformly with PpsH41s for the assault on Berlin itself. They seemed to have done this more often if urban fighting was required. Would these units be reequipped with rifles for open country fighting or would they simply be equipped permanently with SMGs?

 

The russians had large units equiped with SMG's only, mainly the tank riders attached to armoured units

FNG

 

AFAIK the Russians had whole units equipped with SMGs and no rifles - purely because an SMG was so much cheaper and easier to manufacture and some firepower was better than none.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that a good number of Allied troops ditched their rifles and picked up StG 44 (or MP 44 whatever you want to call it) for street fighting, but have no figures.

 

As far I remember most WWII smgs had a maximum range of about 100m and under, they would add extra firepower in urban combat.

Okey this is the thing in war movies most Germans carry the Mp38/40 but that is nearly impossible as there was les than 2 million made and much more troops in the Whermacht than 2 million. So simply at least at the begining of the war Germans were mainly equiped with the K98.

I beleive the Germans were the first to figure out that majority of the toops didnt ned a rifle that could fire 500m because it would 1) very inaccurate 2) hard to distinguish targets

Roel I thought the Greasegun was designated M3.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg32-e.htm

I heard the Yugoslavians used the Mp-44 tilll 1980 is this true?

 

Back in production

http://www.ssd-weapon.com/produkte/bd44/bd44.htm

 

nein spreckanze dutsch.

 

It simply says you can order a BD44 there which is a current copy of the StG44.

I think the main problem with a normal rifle is that once the enemy gets close, you will not have time to aim accurately and reloading takes far too long (for a bolt action rifle like the K98 anyway). This is why an SMG is preferrable in such a situation.

 

From what I have seen, the US deployment of smg's was kinda hap-hazard. Many officers did carry Thompsons but many also carried carbines and some rifles. NCOs were the same way. I don't think any US privates/corporals were issued a Thompson as standard practice.

I have a picture of a M-24 tank rolling through a ruined town and there is a Thompson hanging on the turret. It has been modified by having the buttstock removed. Probably a battlefield pick up.

 

Well I know that the Americans had SMG squads, just as the Russians did. How common were they? No clue.


Edit: Found a site of interest http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/WW2ORG/us.html , the accuracy of the website is unknown to me.

So if this site is correct than the Americans could have up to 5 Smgs in a squad and at least 3. This would probably describe a normal llight or medium infantry squad. Well at least for paratroopers.

Also this site http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=60

It notes teh change but it does not explain the reasons for it. However it appears the Germans were making a push to switch from the K98k to the Mp43, but the foolish Hitler tough soldiers needed to shoot at long distances.

 

Indeed, the site states that this variation applied only to paratroopers, and even then the norm was rather to have a squad armour with 1 BAR and 9 M1 rifles plus two SMGs. For regular infantry no such SMG variation is mentioned. I think it supports JCalhoun's post.

Re: the Russian SMG battalions, does this mean that the assault on Berlin among others was carried out exclusively by these units? Wouldn't they be only a fraction of the Russian Army's total strength at any given location?

 

I was of the understanding that the whole point of the sten and several russian SMG's was that they could be designed to be churned out by the thousand.

 

From what I have read in many US units it was almost standard practice for the men to appropriate whatever additional weaponry that they happened to find lying around...

Basically if that soldier over there was careless enough to leave his SMG lying around, that soldier over there deserves to lose it.


I have to admit that this impression is gained from the handful of memoirs I have read by American troops (from both W2 and Vietnam, interestingly enough), all of which relate at least one incident of this nature. It has puzzled me a little, as each soldier is issued a gun with a serial number, so if he suddenly appears with a different gun - especially one that can be traced to another soldier - them surely he would get a stern lecture...

 

any soldier who has been in the field for a few weeks is not concerned about what happens when they get a kit check at the end of the war.

What they want is the best way tro keep themselves alive and if that means "acuiring" an SMG from another solider not in their platoon then so be it.

This also accounts for all the soldiers using enemies weapons, though mainly probably restricted to stg44's and mp40's both of which are probably better than a Lee Enfield, M1 or Sten.

FNG

 

Ah, but the soldier who's weapon was appropriated would be far more likely to get the talking to, afterall there's nothing necessarily wrong with picking up government property that's been left lying around, on the other hand if you're careless enough to loose your weapon... in most militaries about the only thing worse as far as carelessness goes would be an ND (Negligent Discharge).

 

I think they were issued the smgs because it seemed more logical in urban warfare. Not everyone was issued an smg but would you rather storm the enemy with a bolt-action rifle or an smg? Another advantage of the SMG over the Bolt-action rifles is that you could fire while moving. Although you can state that you can shoot a rifle while moving, but it would take longer to take out the target and you would probably have to stop to aim.

Well as you shoudl know the Russian army wasnt the only army fighting in Berlin on the side of the Allies. What about the Polish 1st Amry, which attacked from the North and North West.

 

I recently read that the SMG rose to prominence as a commando weapon during WWII, for the military, but the Thompson has been popular with civilians(more criminals, but popularized) during the 20s and 30s.

perfect reason for using them in close combat.

It is true that the Russians did have whole battalions of infantry armed with mostly SMGs but after the war the use of the SMG in the military began to decline.

 

One of the biggest appeals of the smg is that they (except the Thompson) are easy, fast and cheap to make. Add that they use inexpensive pistol ammo which also allows the the user to carry more ammo made the smg a logical choice in the later part of the European Theater.

 

I think the Lanchester SMG was also a nicely produced if pricey piece. IIRC it was an SMG produced initially for the Royal Navy which incorporated brass parts so that in the best Navy traditions it could be highly polished... :roll: Nice to know that the higher-ups in the RN had their priorities sorted out....

Edit, no, wrong, it was a copy of another design that was supplanted by the Sten but taken over by the RN with a brass magazine housing)

 

I'd say the cheapest ones would be the M3 Greasegun and the Sten, evan the Germans made their own version of the Sten.

 

And the PpsH43, a makeshift full metal SMG made in Leningrad during the siege.