The unknown holocaust

Let me paraphrase a story a German soldier from a tank crew said.

One day they stopped and got out of their tank to discover bodies of German soldiers. The bodies were died up and shot execution style. The quote is almost a direct quote "for the next few weeks we did not take any prisoners". He also said that later that week they had number of Soviet troops adancing to them under a white flag. Do you know what they did? They took out their weapons and opened fire on them.

Just an example how feelings play a dangerous part in a war.

 

Totaly agreed.

Regards,
Che.

 

i have never been in combat but i dont think i would have too many qualms about killing enemy troops in action ...i dont belive i would ever willingly shoot or rape civillians no matter how hardened and bitter i became as a soldier....i dont think i would stand idely by while a child was raped even if it was done by my own comrads....

 

Exactly, there is always a degree of moral integrity that is up to yourself, and it distinguishes good people from criminals who commit rape and other crimes. No matter how scarred and grieved you have become through war, it is not rational or reasonable to blame the enemy's women and daughters, and so deciding to rape them is a decision men can be held accountable for.

 

A crime comitted by members of the french forces :angry:

Who has ever heard of that, guess nobody knows what disgusting crimes were comitted also by the western allies. It's to easy to damn german soldiers, however guess you're gonna find more infos about allied war crimes.



Special Regards to these Libs of Europe,
Che.

 

Goumiers

Who was the poster whose relative fought with the Goumiers?
Was it not 'AL AHMIN?' Pity he is not still here to reply.
B.B.B.

 

It was Desertwolf, actually. I'm sure I can contact him to ask him for a reply, but I expect him to deny his grandfather's involvement in any of these atrocities and I presume he will be quite offended by the generalization of your post, Che.

Also, if you quote Wikipedia directly, please provide the source (the "citation needed" tag gave it away).

 

Which generalisation ?
I didn't say that all Goumiers comitted crimes, it was a quote of wikipedia.org, sry for don't marking that. Another war crime as well.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre

Regards,
Che.

 

This Wikipedia article is full of errors tough.

There is no doubt that north african soldiers of the french army comitted war crimes in Italy.
These crimes are a shame for the french military,and there is absolutely no excuse for them.

However there certainly never was an order by Maréchal Juin or other senior commanders that allowed them to comit rapes or other violence against the civilian population.
The quotation of Maréchal Juin Wikipedia provides is totally made up.
It only appears on some tendencious italian sites, andI never saw a french version of it.
On the contrary, hundreds of north african soldiers were executed for the kind of behaviour described in the article.

Also, the goums were never send back to Morocco because of atrocities.They were removed from the italian front only to take part in Operation Anvil.(Allied landing in southern France).


That being said, altough some of their elements gave them a bad reputation, it should not be forgotten that north african units took a considerable part of allied victoty in Italy.
Feldmarschall Kesselring even once declared:"My biggest worry was the french expeditionary force....From it's movements and actions depended all my decisions....It was them who destroyed the right flank of 10th army and opened the way to Rome...."(Citation in "Monte Cassino" by Rudolf Böhmler)

 

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NEWS BREAK .... youg warriors rape women ..

So ... welcome to the human race

military It's a discipline problem
politicaly it's an embarasment
for the folks concerned it's war , the best remedy for war rape is to
avoid war
:-?
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post subject

Do any of you know the English saying about the 'Pot and the Kettle'?
that is what this thread is turning into!
If you wish to enter into the German 'Guilt Complex' that has been prevalent since the end of WW2 perhaps we open a thread on that?
(correct Roel, it was Desert Wolf, I have his address somewhere.)
B.B.B.

 

I think the point being made is that there is no "guilt complex" for the Russian and to a lesser extent the French people who committed equally despicable acts.

 

its plain that juin and patton bear much responsabilty for these crimes...molotov also made a speech telling russian troops to help them selves to the german blonde woman to compensate themselves for their hardship ect....in every case these criminal acts were set in motion by malicious orders or speechs.....

 

I do not think that there is a guilt complex in Germany because individual german soldiers commited war crimes.(Comparable to those other nations comitted).
They did so too in 1914-1918 and the least one can say is that there was no particular guilt complex in post WW1 Germany.

That german guilt complex is more due to the criminal policies of the nazi governement(Starting WW2, actively killing millions of people for ethnic reasons, enslaving millions of other people in the name of aryan superiority....)

But of course it is more than debatable wether todays germans should feel guilty for crimes that happened when they were not even born....

 

Oh, so we should just accept it then? It's all right for young warriors to rape women, because it's human nature? This kind of nonsense is not just logically flawed, it is harmful.

No matter how normal it is for rape to occur in times of war, or in fact in any situation where young men find themselves in a position of power over women, we should never begin to see it as good. We should not see it as inevitable. And so it is perfectly normal to discuss mass rape as a war crime, and not to gloss over it as something that "just happens".

 

lol,jeagure, ...how does one avoid war?....you mean like neville chamberlain with his peice of paper signed by herr hitler?

 

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there is a train of thought to glamorise warfare , or (and I'm one ) to
stand in awe of its technicalities ,
It still is about killing people in large numbers !
women got raped..
women got burn alive clutching their infants
women starved to death
to assume than women can stand on the sideline cheering the troops is a
bit unrealistic and as I said there is no war crimes
war IS organised crime

Moloch ,the god of war ,
the devorer of children ,should not be trifled with

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Moloch as the devourer of children is an invention of Roman propaganda.

It is stated earlier in this topic that British and American troops very rarely raped women. Russians, Germans, Japanese and to a lesser extent the French did this. Therefore there is simply no way to defend the standpoint that rape is a natural result of war that will inevitably happen. Apparently it is possible to fight a war without raping, and therefore these crimes were conscious deeds by guilty men.

 

it is absolutly obvious than an army behavior is a reflexion of a society
values , further , for officers to turn a blind eyes to reprehensible acts
is , an indication of ineficiency and dubious morale .

it happen , none the less and discipline usually keep any events to it's
statistical minimum , that of individuals .

As for Moloch ,it is an allegoric way of pointing out than to invoke this god
is to offer one own children to the slaughter

In the home country of phenicia and near east ,
the supreme sacrifice of the son as offering to one god was prevalent
including amongst their neighboors the hebrews ,
parents offering their children are mentionned in the bible ( excluding
jesus ) at least twice , in a matter of fact way , a hard sacrifice but not an
unusual one .
the romans vomited the carthaginians , but so did the greeks cities of
sicily .
if it's propaganda it does'nt means than it's untrue

 

And so if it happens on a massive scale, should we not call it a war crime and condemn it? It is a failing of culture, individual values and discipline if rape runs rampant.

Like I said, Moloch as the devourer of children was an invention of Roman propaganda. There was no habitual sacrifice of children to any Carthaginian god.