My Lai massacre

The My Lai Massacre [pronounced mee-lye] (Vietnamese: thảm sát Mỹ Lai) was a massacre committed by U.S. soldiers on hundreds of unarmed Vietnamese civilians, mostly women and children, on March 16, 1968, in the hamlet of My Lai, during the Vietnam War. It prompted widespread outrage around the world and reduced American support at home for the war in Vietnam. The massacre is also known as the Son My massacre (Vietnamese: thảm sát Sơn Mỹ) or sometimes as the Song My massacre. [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

It is possible that for 500 civilians one man got only house detention?

 

It's a lot more complex than that.

Multiple people were tried and the man who got "house detention" was actually found guilty and sentenced to jail but by presidential decree was allowed to serve house detention pending an appeal which would seem to have been successful in part.

I know virtually nothing of the incident and the Wiki entry would seem to be fairly biased, as unfortunatly most are, but its probably agreeable that a cover up occured and that the US Government and Military were not overly effieicent in their investigation of the incident.

Without suggesting that such poor investigation and cover up was justified it was regretably common for the period and war and to a lesser extent can still be seen today in Iraq.

Basically the US Government and Military with some justification do not want the failings and crimes of their soldiers to be made public knowledge.

FNG

 

Mz knowlege about Vietnam is not bigg,corect me if i wrong but lossed on Vietnames was like 2-3 mil dead,and american like 70k.Lets considere militari losses,US was pury militaru,and Vientam not.Lets take ratio 1:10 in army losses (and i doubth that ratio was su high but..) it is 700k military losses for VC army,and rest r civilian.Web is full of pictures on executing the Vietnam ppl,POW-s,civilians but i dont know it was any otther war crime trial there?Most of them was good cowered,so we will newer know about them.
I asking that coz i try to find when was american soldier on trial on war crimes ,coz i see ewery day new evidence on their terror all over the world,and i know that US asked decret from all coutryes witch make their soldiers imune for war crimes,and completly forbid trials on international courts.

My english is poor,sry for that.

 

yes the americans do have a less than perfect record for war crimes even for ww2. they are also very defensive of their soldiers which does not help.

But saying that Vietnam and Iraq are very difficult wars to fight.

Furthermore a good percentage of US Solidiers are not volunteers. Whilst "currently?" there is no conscription a lot of serving soldiers signed up for other reasons and never really thought they would have to actually fight. Though Vietnam did see conscription in the US and this causes a lot of problems.

But all that aside, US troops are probably a lot better than Russian and not signifcantly worse than the much smaller and professional european armies.

FNG

 

Everybody knows My Lai. Almost no-one knows about Hue.

 

Even if they knew it might not fit the agenda that they were pushing. After all, to recognize that the Vietnamese communists often perpetrated terrible atrocities on their own people might confuse the issue

One similarity between Iraq and Vietnam is that the opposition hid themselves behind civilians, taking cover in schools and houses and hoping for civilian deaths( as well as deliberately causing them) because it aids their propaganda campaign that is constantly waged in the news media.
The difficulties of fighting insurgents, and terrorists in built up civilian areas is compounded when the opposition tactics include the deliberate killing of civilians.

 

The officer held responsible for My Lai was LT William Calley.

You don't hear or read much about the former Soviet and other militaries commiting atrocities because they are not subject to a free and open press like the free western countries are.

 

What was the punishment for 1 man,3y house detention?Ant that was only one who was punished in whole ?Dont compare US army with russian army as a justification for slaughters.

 

Actually Lt. Calley the man held responsible was sentenced to life imprisonment. As a result of long and complicated legal proceedings he was eventually released after serving only 3 1/2 years detention.
Not the proper result in my opinion however the legal system(in all contries) often fails to achieve justice.
There was no outcry because many people thought that Calley was being used as a scapegoat by the Army.

The only reason one cannot compare the US Army to the Soviets in regards to atrocities is because the Soviets don't admit or publicize theirs.

 

Haditha case and subsequent denials, cover ups, don't seem like admitting and publicising the massacer either.
Some even had the nerve to compare it to 82nd Airborne killing the captured SS men of KG Peiper at Melmedy stating it is historical fact ( if i was 82nd veteran i vould sue pants of the Bill O'Riley) and he did it twice BTW.

BTW
My Lai case also went trough warious phases of denial, cover ups and whitewash. It was not just UA army admitting and publicising the fact.

 

Perhaps because neither you not I know the truth of what happened at Haditha. Media reports say one thing and the Marines say something different. The latest evidence I have seen supports the Marine's version:
[url=http://www.newsmax.com/archiv...w.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 3358.shtml[/url]

It's true that it was some time before the truth came out and even today the whole truth isn't known precisely. The investigation findings conflict with some of the claims made by the Vietnamese communists(number of people killed for instance) who have never acknowledged any of the atrocities committed by their own forces.

 

I also heard that Calley gto someleaveway because of his intellegence. it has been said that his IQ was hovering around average , and possibly below it. Apparently, he barely made it into college and even then he failed most of his courses there.


Quickfact: just a fact. Lt caley now runs a jewelery store in Ohio, USA.

 

a few other factors to consider

while this case is not one of the US army's finest hours there were some things that affected the whole affair and are not often mentioned
1- the unit involved was not a shining example of military arts, it was almost all draftees and had poor moral.
2- the unit had taken many casulties from booby traps and sniping around the village
3- the unproven but popular belief among the US troops was that it was a VC supporting village and that most of the villagers either were VC or were active in supporting them. this belief was most likely correct
4- IIRC there was an element of hot pursuit involved. i believe this to be true because one reason that there were no more charges brough was that it was related to combat instead of just walking into a quiet village and opening fire.
5- Lt Calley was charged because it was proven that he had to recock his pistol after every shot and this was held as evidence that he was not acting in the heat of the moment when he shot at least one babe in arms. everything else was held to be "just one of those things that sometimes happen in war".

people also forget that a chopper pilot placed his bird in the line of fire and ordered his gunners to fire on US troops if they did not stop shooting at the villagers. he was decorated for this action.

if the whole truth were to be known i suspect that the village was VC controlled and as such may have been considered a military target. if this is true then not everything that happened can be called a war crime but there were actions taken that were. cally's shooting of children was one and there may have been more but they got lost in the shuffle. we must not forget that the VC themselves were far from innocent farmers. they had a long history of attrocities to ther credit. with the exception of cally's actions perhaps the right answer was to consider it" just one of those things". at the time the war was almost over and most people just wanted to have it end and forget the whole thing

 

Grieg your link has nothing on.

Anyone know anything about Hugh Thompson Jr?

 

So lynn1212 by your resoning it was OK?

 

I also heard that Calley was a poor leader.He didnt even know how to use a combat compass. Many of his men said that they would have fragged him if it had gone on any longer.(his poor leadership)

 

WARNING: links to pictures below have graphic content

It WAS NOT just few hotheads firing on a couple of civilians in anger. I was deliberate massacer taking few hours not minutes.

From article on My Lai with graphic photos:
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war-crimes/my-lai-massacre/

Nasty VC's who got what they deserved:
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/w ... i_road.jpg
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/w ... y-lai4.jpg
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/w ... n_gray.jpg

 

There is no evidence that more than about a dozen men took part in the murders of civilians. That is bad enough IMO and they should have all been punished to the full extent of the law.
When US troops do this kind of thing it will be brought out, mentioned frequently and enshrined in the public record.
Despite the fact that similar incidents have happened in every war and there was plenty of it done by the communists in Vietnam you will read or hear precious little about it.

 

Okay..here is the article:


New Evidence Emerges in Haditha Case
Phil Brennan, NewsMax
Monday, June 26, 2006


New evidence continues to emerge that U.S. Marines did not wantonly kill Iraqi civilians in Haditha last November - and the soldiers' accounts of what happened are backed up by videotape shot by an ultralight vehicle, NewsMax has learned.


According to media reports, last Nov. 19 members of a Marine Corps company killed some 24 innocent civilian Iraqis in Haditha, a town 140 miles northwest of Baghdad and near the Syrian border.


In the ensuing media firestorm that broke out after the story was revealed, many news reports here and abroad compared the Haditha deaths to the infamous My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War.


Michael Sallah, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his My Lai reporting, has said: "You would have difficulties finding a single newspaper in Germany or elsewhere in Europe which does not deal with My Lai."


But the facts and accounts from Marines and others on the ground tell another story.


What is not in dispute is that the Marines' engagement in Haditha began when an IED (improvised explosive device) detonated, killing a Marine from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division.



Story Continues Below



In the aftermath of the action two investigations were launched, one by Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell, who was charged with investigating how the incident was reported through the chain of command. A second investigation, headed by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS), is looking into any possible criminal aspects of the incident.


The Bargewell report has not been released and is still being reviewed by Army Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, a top U.S. commander in Iraq. But military officials told the Los Angeles Times that although it concludes there was no deliberate cover-up by senior Marine officers, the Corps failed to follow up and ask questions that the known details should have provoked them to ask.

The NCIS investigation is still ongoing.


In May, when Rep. John Murtha, a Democrat from Pennsylvania, appeared on "Good Morning America," he accused the Marines of K Company of killing innocent civilians "in cold blood" and said that the killings had been covered up by higher officers.

The Bargewell report has disproved that allegation, and with the NCIS investigation so far incomplete and no soldier charged with a crime, how would Murtha know?


Intelligence sources tell NewsMax the facts of the Haditha incident paint an entirely different picture from the one Murtha and others are propagating.





Military sources familiar with the incident have told NewsMax:



Within minutes of the early morning IED explosion, a firefight erupted between insurgents and Marines. Civilians were caught in the middle of the firefight. Also, although civilians did die, their deaths were the result of door-to-door combat as the Marines sought to clear houses and stop the insurgent gunfire.


Ample evidence proves that a firefight took place. For example, every second of the ensuing firefight was monitored by numerous people at company, battalion, and regimental HQs via radio communications.


Video evidence supports the Marines' claims. Within a very few minutes, battalion, regimental, and division headquarters were able to watch the action thanks to an overhead ultralight aircraft that remained aloft all day. Photos of some of the action were downloaded and in the hands of Marines and the NCIS.


Some of the insurgents involved in planning the attack and firing at Marines during a daylong engagement have been apprehended and are in custody.

Much of the story claiming what really happened in the aftermath of the IED explosion was reported by the Washington Post on June 11. NewsMax can now reveal the rest of the story about what really happened at Haditha.


In order to fully understand what happened last Nov. 19, it is important to know what kind of city Haditha is.


"We require more manpower to cover this area the way we need to," one military official told the Los Angeles Times. One Knight Ridder reporter called Haditha, a town of about 100,000 people, "an insurgent bastion," reporting that "insurgents blend in with the residents, setting up cells in their homes next to those belonging to everyday citizens, some of them supportive."


Knight Ridder said that around the time of an August attack, when a total of 20 U.S. Marines were killed in two days, "several storefronts were lined with posters and pictures supporting al-Qaida. ... "There is no functioning police station and the government offices are largely vacant. The last man to call himself mayor relinquished the title earlier this year after scores of death threats from insurgents."


According to an August 2005 story in Britain's Guardian newspaper, Haditha, under the nose of an American base, "is a miniature Taliban-like state. Insurgents decide who lives and dies, which salaries get paid, what people wear, what they watch and listen to."


When the Marines first went into the city, they were aware of the tight control insurgents exercised over Haditha. They discovered that the insurgents had freshly paved over dirt roads leading into town under the auspices of civic works projects.


They were, according to a NewsMax source, "beautiful asphalt-surfaced roads" that even included painted lines. The only problem, the source recalled, was that insurgents had laid more than 100 mega-IEDs under that asphalt. And, in order to avoid having to change batteries in the triggering devices, they had wired them into the city power lines lining the road.


It is important to remember that the so-called details of the alleged massacre came from Iraqis and residents of Haditha, a city run by insurgents who have those residents not allied with them under their bloody thumbs.


In the Post story, an attorney for Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, said that his client told him that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. He insisted there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.


"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident, told the Post. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."


According to the Post, Wuterich told his attorney in initial interviews over nearly 12 hours that the shootings were the unfortunate result of a methodical sweep for enemies in a firefight. Two attorneys for other Marines involved in the incident said Wuterich's account is consistent with those they had heard from their clients.


Wrote the Post: "On Nov. 19, Wuterich's squad left its headquarters at Firm Base Sparta in Haditha at 7 a.m. on a daily mission to drop off Iraqi army troops at a nearby checkpoint. "It was like any other day, we just had to watch out for any other activity that looked suspicious," said Marine Cpl. James Crossan, 21, in an interview from his home in North Bend, Wash. He was riding in the four-Humvee convoy as it turned left onto Chestnut Road, heading west at 7:15 a.m.


"Shortly after the turn, a bomb buried in the road ripped through the last Humvee. The blast instantly killed the driver, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20. Wuterich, who was driving the third Humvee in the line, immediately stopped the convoy and got out, Puckett told the Post, adding that while Wuterich was evaluating the scene, Marines noticed a white unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.


"The first thing he thought was it could be a vehicle-borne bomb or these guys could be ready to do a drive-by shooting," Puckett said, explaining that the Marines were on alert for such coordinated, multistage attacks.


According to Puckett, as Wuterich began briefing the platoon leader, AK-47 shots rang out from residences on the south side of the road, and the Marines ducked.


A corporal with the unit leaned over to Wuterich and said he saw the shots coming from a specific house. After a discussion with the platoon leader, they decided to clear the house, according to Wuterich's account.

"There was a threat, and they went to eliminate the threat," Puckett said.


A four-man team of Marines, including Wuterich, kicked in the door and found a series of empty rooms, noticing quickly that there was one room with a closed door and people rustling behind it, Puckett said. They then kicked in that door, tossed a fragmentation grenade into the room, and one Marine fired a series of "clearing rounds" through the dust and smoke, killing several people, Puckett said.


The Marine who fired the rounds - Puckett said it was not Wuterich - had experience clearing numerous houses on a deployment in Fallujah, where Marines had aggressive rules of engagement.


Although it was almost immediately apparent to the Marines that the people dead in the room were men, women, and children – most likely civilians – they also noticed a back door ajar and believed that insurgents had slipped through to a house nearby, Puckett said. The Marines stealthily moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using a fragmentation grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people, he said.


Wuterich, not having found the insurgents, told the team to stop and headed back to the platoon leader to reassess the situation, Puckett said, adding that his client knew a number of civilians had just been killed.


As already stated, the Haditha massacre story reported by Time magazine was based entirely on accounts from Iraqis with an ax to grind. The facts of what happened tell a different story. The real story, it will eventually be revealed, is backed up by evidence Time didn't know existed. It gives the lie to the idea that there was anything like a massacre in Haditha on Nov. 19. Here, for the first time, is the truth about what happened.


NewsMax can verify Wuterich's account. The site of the IED explosion was in an area well known as an insurgent stronghold, where as many as 50 IEDs were found previously, and from where, on two previous occasions, insurgents launched small-arms fire, rocket-propelled grenades, and mortar attacks on K Company.


Within five minutes of the blast, Marines on the scene reported they were receiving small-arms fire. Within 30 minutes of the blast, and while the house-clearing was still under way, an Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) team en route to the site came under small-arms fire in a known insurgent tactic to ambush first responders.


At the same time, just 30 minutes after the house-clearing, an intelligence unit arrived to question the Marines involved in the house-clearing operation. NewsMax sources say the behavior of the Marines involved gave them no reason to believe anything but what they had been told.


At about the same time a UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) arrived over the blast area and from that moment on, for the entire day , the UAV transmitted views of the engagement to the company command site, battalion headquarters, the regimental HQ, and the division HQ. What the UAV captured was a view of Marines in their perimeter, as they went about doing house-clearing. It was then vectored to the surrounding area to catch any fleeing insurgents. It showed four insurgents fleeing the neighborhood, loading weapons into their car, and linking up with their partners (the ones that had conducted the ambush on the EOD team).


Knowing what we now know about Wuterich's account, these fleeing insurgents were most likely the same ones who left through the back door of the house he was clearing.


There are photos of this, and they show the insurgents getting back into their car after loading the weapons The UAV then followed them south to their safe house. From that point forward, until about 6 p.m., the safe house was hit by bombs and an assault by a K Company squad. The UAV followed the insurgents who had been inside through town.

The final tally for these engagements was two insurgents killed by direct fire, one killed by GBU bombs, and one detained. The entire action was followed by the UAV overhead.


Keep in mind, the entire action was followed by keeping the UAV overhead all day.


The Haditha "massacre" being referred to is the 30 minutes to one hour that took place first thing in the morning. The rest of the day's activities, in fact, confirmed the nature of the morning's attack.

It is clear that the entire incident was planned and carried out by insurgents who detonated the IED, and then, in a familiar tactic, attacked the Marines responding to the blast – deliberately putting civilians at risk.


This is what happened in Haditha that day. It was a daylong engagement with armed insurgents that involved civilian casualties who died as a result of being caught in the middle of a firefight. It had been reported as a blast followed by a TIC – Marine Corps terminology for "Troops in Contact." In other words, gunfire directed at the Marines.


As the battalion went about compiling information on the insurgents' identities and determining who had been involved in the attack, its actions in the ensuing weeks resulted in the detention of several insurgents who masterminded the attack, and who remain incarcerated in Abu Ghraib prison today.

 

I think Hadith and Mai Lai are exceptions in what is usually a comparitively 'benevolent' army, the U.S. army. Also the fact that the perpetrators are being punished is an exeption in history... America doesnt deserve to be criticized more for the atrocities that they did commit, simply because they take the most steps to ensure that those atrocities are avoided...