USA Image problem?

What are you referring to here? If this is about WW II lend/lease then its a poor analogy IMO. Lend/lease was not a commercial transaction, a sale of goods. It was about getting the desperately needed supplies to our allies before they were defeated due to lack of food, raw materials and war supplies. It was given on the basis of ; here take this and use it and we can talk about sharing the cost later, after you are secure from invasion and defeat.
To then characterize that help as a mere sale is a distortion of the facts.
Commercial transactions are about profit. I'm quite sure that if the US was concerned about profit they could have gotten a better deal than they got. For that matter it is quite likely that they could have gotten hard currency and made real profit by selling arms and supplies to the Axis powers and probably as a result have stayed out of the war alltogether.
Didn't the neutral countries sell arms to both sides?

While I agree that some Americans are too quick to remind our allies of the debt they owe the US from previous wars it is somewhat understandable why they feel the need to bring the subject up when they see attitudes like that expressed by those who were so desperately in need of the aid and so happy to receive it at the time but have now changed their tune
All these same countries after the war became affluent and prosperous (sometimes with more help from a source that I will not name) so why should they resent helping to share the burden of the cost by paying back token amounts (pennies on the dollar)?

 

U offtenly mention war in Ex Yu,but u dont know probably 0.1% of that part of history.For exsampl,we had minor was with Slovenia allso (TISO homeland) but he got the same thinking like i do.I got alot friends in Bosnia (muslim ones) in croatia,monteneggro,Macedonia...Muslims in bosnia r not mujahedins,they r normall ppl not much diferent from me.

Back to the topic.It not matther what u think about urself,only matther what otther think about u.Look like Americans r confident that they r good and loved in world,but truth is alot diferent.

Panzerman asked em what ilegal actions....CIA is active all owe the world,we all know that.I just can imagine what they do in south america....

 

I usually tend to think of Lend lease as commerical transaction regardless of whether the USA operated at a monetary loss (which I assume she did)... It could be said that it was in America's interests that Nazi Germany be defeated, and that America provided materials to her allies in exchange for the 'service' of fighting Nazi Germany...

It is not unlikely that America would have stood to lose even more (monetary-wise) if the Nazi's controlled Europe, her industry and market... Thus while lend lease did not provide a 'profit' for America it certainly yielded the least deficit possible in such a situation...

A contractual transaction doesn't need to make profit for it to be considered a transaction...

Of course this is a pretty heartless approach :smok: , but there is at least some truth to it... Just as there is truth to the fact that Lend Lease was given in a relative spirit of "good will" and generosity by America to her allies - take this and use it and we will talk about the costs later... But is still a transaction IMO

 

Operation Ajax (military cue in Iran CIA+MI6), Operation Gladio (messing in internal affairs of Italy, Belgium, Germany), Guatemala (military cue +supporting death squads), Chile (military cue), Nicaragua (terrorist oprations like mining harbours and ships and supporting insurgency/death squads), El Salvador (supporting death squads), Venezuela (military cue), Greece (military cue), Turkey (military cue), Kongo ( supporting separatists in Katanga and military cue against Lumumba), Ethiopia (supporting Somalia in Ogaden wars, supporting separatists in Eritrea and Tigre), Cambodia (military cue).... Take your pick.

US HAD (as in past tense) good human rights record.

 

Then why are you trying to justify serbian atrocities? It doesn't matter what a Serbian thinks only what others think of Serbia, right?
Are you aware of the way the rest of the world looks at Serbia?

Back to the topic. The opinion of the rest of the world is important to the US but it is not of overiding importance. It is more important that the US pursue policies and actions that our leaders have determined are in our own best interest in the long run. We cannot have leaders that base their decisions primarily on how popular they will be around the world.
Sometimes the correct course of action is one that will not widely popular around the world. That is to be expected since the rest of the world has different interests (their own self interests) than the US.

 

You have no convincing evidence of most of those charges.

 

Bolive me grieg,how bad world think about serbia,it is 100x worst fo us

 

Yeah? When was the last time you saw an American leader tried for war crimes?

BTW You don't speak for the rest of the world...just one opinion by a Serbian nationalist who is an apologist for the Serbian criminals who committed war crimes.

 

A couple of points...


Lend-Lease. Yes, it was very altruistic of the Americans and all credit to them. Although having war declared on them probabley helped.


A more serious point:

The CIA being 'active' all over the world. Well I'm sure it is, though I could not say what they actually do. But then, the KGB (or whatever they are called mow), MI6, Mossad, and any other nation's Intelligence Services that you care to mention are active too. You can't judge in isolation.

 

I'm not claiming that lend/lease was pure altruism. it was not. But to characterize it as a pure commercial transaction is beyond cynical. It is illogical.

ps The lend lease act was passed in March of 1941 well before the US was dragged into the war.

 

Operatin Ajax is well documented not least by recently by CIA released documents.

Opration Gladio is also well documented (i did post a link to the BBC 3part documentary)

Military cue in Guatemala is also well documented not least by interviews of poeple involved.

Military cue in Chile is also well documented. Henry Kissinger is accused of involment of murder of one of the generals (commander of capitals garrison) in Chilean court -is well documented by documents send to junta by US officials.

Nicaragua -is well documented. Terrorist activities like mining of ships in Nicaraguan ports was revealed by former CIA operatives (even so they regarded it not as terrorism but like military operations). Support of contras is well documented not least by Iran-Contra affair.

El Salvador US suport for miliraty junta and their death squads is well documented.

Venezuela recent military cue is still mater of debate but from modus operandi CIA involvement is evident. Also Pedro Carmona was wisiting Bush incrawford couple of weeks before the cue.

Military cues by right wing military juntas in Greece and Turkey are commonly linked to operation Gladio. Two military cues against democratic goverments and key NATO allies would not be possible without CIA involment.

Kongo. US intentions of killing Lummumba was stated as primary goal by at the time CIA station chief Larry Devlin (even tough he says that his murder was work of Mobutu and Belgians (Tchombe)). Support for Katanga and Moise Tchombe was more or less Belgian but support of military cue by colonel Joseph Mobutu (Mobutu Sese Seko Nkuku Ngbendu wa za Banga) was CIA work.

Ethiopia After col.Mengistu Haile Mariam took hard left turn and started reciving military help from SSSR and warshaw pact (previously Ethiopia was US supported), US supported Somalia in their attack of 1977 on Ethiopia for Ogaden region of Ethiopia.

Cambodia US involvment in military cue in 1970 led by Prime Minister General Lon Nol and Prince Sisowath Sirik Matak, against king Norodom Sihanuk is well documented.

 

As i see here u get support only from americans,and dont pretend to act stupid,u know good how US work in the world.I wonder why serbia droped charges against NATO on international court off law,what tools was used to do it? Vietnam is enough reason to cinvict whole US supreme command in that time,but as i see,not one soldier was convicted....

Btw,im not nationalist

 

Neither am I, but it was uncommonly generous, hence very altruistic.

...which is why it was a less serious point...
Although wasn't that just for the UK originally? I don't know.

 

Perhaps it was altruistic after UK went broke. Before that conditions for UK purchases of arms were linked by condition that they have to take over ex. French and Belgian orders that were not delivered becouse of capitulation of both countries. This landed the british with large quantities of expensive and usless equipnemt ( Brewster Bermuda, Vought Chesapeeke, Heldivers, Curtiss Mohawks, Curtiss Helldivers, some Brewster Buffalos...).

Also Lend-lease shipments to SSSR were paid with gold. One of gold shipments was lost on HMS Edinburgh (large part was raised in the 70's).

 

I'm not sure if you would call my posts support, but I'm not American.

Why?

 

Mass civilians murders maybe....3 milion dead vietnames....

 

tiso ...you are supprissed that the cia was busy doing its best to fight its end of the cold war? did the cia use murder, arson , forgery , deception ,black market transactions ,sell drugs ? ..we dont know for sure cause after all their spooks ...did the usa support unsavery despots toi keep the bolshis at bay ...yup ...i mean geez we sent joe stalin a zillion dolllars wortha stuff as long as he was killin germans ..we knew he was a slime ball mass muderer ...so what ,he is killen lottsa krauts ,,,after the war joe s became our biggest problem and if the commies had never murdered all the innocents (50 million ,100m ...whatever ,thats a lotta cracked eggs ) ...then we would still oppose the commies just based on lack of freedom ,repression ....anyway ,fek the commies ,hooray for the cia ...cia is good guys ,kgb is bad guys ..both are evil secret gangs of spooks... the nature of spying ...nasty shyte ..didnt the kgb just kill a russian defector a few months ago in london with radiation sickness

 

And they paid in gold.

KGB does not exist anymore. If you mean Russian federation secret service it is now FSB. Litvinenko's murder is not cleared yet not by a long shot. Unless you watch Fox

Intefereing into internal affairs of other countries is illegal under international law. BTW US disposed of quite a few democraticaly elected goverments and not all were communist.

 

When and where did the US commit mass murder of civilians, with the exception of Mai Lai (I spelt it wrong, I know)?

There are a few points to consider here (not in any particular order, some are better than others).

1) How many of those 3 million were actually civilians? Vietnam was (mostly) a war against guerilla fighters. Who would hide by posing as civilians. Does anybody know how many of the reported 3 million dead were actuially legitimate targets. And before you say it, no, the US did not run around killing bunches of civilians just in case.

2) How many of those 3 million were actually killed by US forces? The North Vietnamise were not angels, and neither were the AVRN.

3) More to the point, how many of those 3 million were deliberately killed by US forces.

4) The Vietnam War lasted from 1959 to 1975. Which works out at 'only' 187500 per year on average (a bad way to do it, but a good indicator of the spread nevertheless). Oh, and the bulk of the US involvement was 1963 - 1973, 10 years out of 16.

5) Any war that includes a lot of aerial support will involve collateral damage. Nasty but true. It is not deliberate targeting of civilians.

6) The figure of 3 million is an estimate, though as consensus seems to put the figure at something around that I can't really argue.


That will do for now, I think.

 

The "cash and carry" rules in effect before lend/lease were in effect for political reasons due to US isolationist views in the US congress (among other places)

The lend/lease aid to the USSR was not repaid in full.
The settlement reached in 1972 was for 722 million dollars (though they had until 2001 to pay) this was to repay debts of 10-15 billion dollars (in 1945 dollars). This repayment settlement(if it was even paid...that I don't know) represents pennies on the dollar.