300 spartans?

Historically, they were defeated just as often as other Greek city states... However they were tougher mostly because they were the only professional, dedicated soldiers in Greece - having a population of serfs work the land for them allowed them to spend all their time training for war. In battle they were far more organized and calm than the other Greeks. They were capable of holding formation when advancing and even of carrying out some basic tactical manoeuvers, something the other Greeks were utterly incapable of.

In the movie they are depicted as masters of the sword and as testosteron-powered maniacs, but this is very far from the truth as far as we can make it out. They regarded the sword as an inferior secondary weapon and carried only very short double-edged swords which they would use only if their spear snapped.

McRis: the numbers I mentioned may be small when compared to Herodotos, but like I said, we have to think of what was logistically feasible. Hoplite armies of the time never exceeded 15,000 heavy infantry. Even if the Persians by some miraculous method were capable of supplying and moving a much larger army, it certainly can't have been anything beyond the 60,000 men Alexander took to Asia Minor with him.

 

ive seen pictures of the spartans wearing their hemet crests running sideways as oppossed to the classic fore and aft stye greek crest ..is this correct ...is it even really known at all what spartan kit looked like?

 

They also took peer group loyalty to a higher level - a Spartan's closest partner on the battlefield was also his parner in bed. Homosexuality was institutionalised in Spartan society for the purpose of bonding warriors closer together (sorry - impossible to phrase that without it sounding like a pun) whereas wives were taken primarily for breeding purposes - ie to make more warriors. A very speciallised society indeed ...

 

It changed over time. In the sixth and early fifth century they would no doubt have worn crested Corinthian-style helmets with cheek plates; the crest of these helmets ran front to back, but left to right crests have also been found and are considered to have been the mark of officers (like they were in the Roman legions).

The problem with the Corinthian helmet is that it's almost impossible to see anything through its narrow eye slits and that the helmet actually covers the ears entirely, which severely impedes yet another one of the senses crucial to survival on the battlefield. Its use therefore gradually declined in the course of the fifth century in favour of the pylos, a small conical helmet which was not even always made of metal.

 

yes...but the corinthein helmet looks way cooler ,,,conical helmets look dweebish except on dan akroyd

 

Oh please, give me a break...

So did the armor. By the time of Thermopylae battle Spartans still used bronze cuirasses while the other Greeks preferred the lighter and more practical composite ones.
I wonder when they switched to the latter type...
The next stage that I 'm aware of is the use of very little body armour including the shield(hoplon) and the pylos.

 

well...i guess women are a lot of trouble.......lol,but not that THAT much trouble!! mcris, you seem to hold that the notion of ancient greek buggary is a case of misinterpretation ...ie . that western scholars have confused the meanig of "man, i love my new horse ,he is faster than lightning " ...with " of course i love you dear ,and i have eyes only for you , dont be silly ,i was admireing her necklace ...were those real pearls she was wearing ...do you think?

 

Well, I have seen the film now (more because I wanted to see my friends... )

Well, where do I start? With the historical innaccuracies or the sheer 'form over function' approach to all things military that films often have? Or even just the post-Enlightenment viewpoints apparently held by many characters?

Actually it is probably easier to list what they got right:

1) Spartan babies that looked puny were killed off
2) Spartan helmets did have crests
3) They showed the correct type of wheat being grown - although their crop yield was too high

And there you go.

Possibly the crowing moment of 'duh!' in the whole film was Leonidas telling the weird hunchback guy that he could not fight with them because the strength of the Spartans was in the fact they fought together in a phalanx, each man protecting his neighbour. And then they proceed to go and fight by spreading out and taking on individual enemies in one-on-one swordfights. :roll:

Even my friends picked up on that, and their opinion of the film was "Great - lots of killing, some naked women, but could do with a few guns"
:roll:


My view? Well, it looked kinda cool, but I just can't turn my brain off that much.

 

The battle of Thermopylae took place in 480 BC. It lasted 3 days.

The pass of Thermopylae (in greek is Θερμοπύλες) consisted of a track along the shore of the Gulf of Malis so narrow that only one chariot could pass through (today is 1.5-3 kilometers). On the southern side of the track stood the cliffs, while on the north side was the gulf. Along the path was a series of three constrictions, or "gates" , and at the center gate a short wall that had been erected by the Phocians in the previous century to aid in their defense against Thessalian invasions. In greek Thermopylae means warm or hot gates decause of the hot springs that were located there.
Today, the pass is not near the sea but is inland due to infilling of the Gulf of Malis. The old track appears at the foot of hills around the plain, flanked by a modern road.

According to Herodotus the Greek army was:

300 Spartans (an elite unit, the bodyguards of Leonidas)
500 Mantineans
500 Tegeans
120 Arcadians from Orchomenos
1,000 Other Arcanians
400 Corinthians
200 Phlians
80 Myceneans
700 Thespians
400 Thebans
1,000 Phocians
13 Opuntian Locrians
1,000 other Lacedemonians
and perhaps 800 auxilia troops from other Greek cities
The total number is 7,000.

Their commander was the king of Sparta Leonidas.

According to Herodotus the persian army was 2,500,000-5,000,000
but the modern historians believe that the actual size of the Persian land forces was 150,000-250,00 (no one knows the size of the persian army).

The Greeks was fewer but had some very important advantages:
1. The pass had small entrance so the Persians couldn't sent all the troops
together.
2. Greeks had better weapons. Their spears were longer, their shields bigger and stronger and their armor better and covers almost all their body.
3.Greeks had better discipline than the Persians.

Of course the greek armor was very heavy, i think 31 kilos.

On the Persian Empire army's arrival to the battle scene, Greek troops instigated a council meeting. Some Peloponnesians suggested withdrawal to the Isthmus and blocking the passage to Peloponnesus. They were well aware that the Persians would have to go through Athens in order to reach them there. The Phocians and Locrians, whose states were located nearby, became indignant and advised defending Thermopylae and sending for more help. Leonidas and the Spartans agreed with the Phocians and Locrians.

Xerxes delay the attack for 4 days because he believed that when the Greeks see his entire army would leave. He sent emissaries to the Greek forces.
At first, he asked Leonidas to join him by offering the kingship of all Greece. Leonidas answered: "If you knew what is good in life, you would abstain from wishing for foreign things. For me it is better to die for Greece than to be monarch over my compatriots."

Then he asked him more forcefully to surrender their arms. Then Leonidas
said "Come and get them" (Μολών Λαβέ in greek)

Herodotus writes that when Dienekes, a Spartan soldier, was informed that Persian arrows would be so numerous as "to blot out the sun", he remarked with characteristically laconic prose, "So much the better, we shall fight in the shade."

The Greeks had camped on either side of the rebuilt Phocian wall. That the wall was guarded shows that the Greeks were using it to establish a reference line for the battle, but they fought in front of it.

The Greeks fought in phallanx formation. The Persians, armed with arrows and short spears, could not break through the long spears of the Greek phalanx, nor were their lightly armoured men a match for the superior armour and weaponry.
The Greeks except from the phallanx formation made use of the feint to draw in the Medes (another way to call the Persians), pretending to retreat in disorder only to turn suddenly and attack the pursuing Medes.

The Greeks had no problem against the persian army. In the second assault, Xerxes, sent his best troop ,the royal bodyguard, the Immortals, an elite group of 10,000 soldiers. Able to approach the Greek line only in such numbers as the space allowed, they did't get any better than the others Persians, so Xerxes withdraw them.

Leonidas had arranged a system of relays between the hoplites of the various cities so as to constantly have fresh troops on the front line but in the heat of the battle we don't know if the units had a chance to rotate.

The first day of battle probably ended there (according to Ctesias, the Immortals did not attack until the second day).

On the second day Xerxes sent more troops but neither these troops manage to won the Greeks.

Late on the second day of battle a Greek citizen who lived near informed him of a path around Thermopylae and offered to guide the Persian army through the pass. His name was Ephialtes (Eφιάλτης in greek which means
nightmare). Ephialtes was motivated by the desire of a reward.

The path led from east of the Persian camp along the ridge of Mt. Anopaea behind the Greeks.

Xerxes sent his 10,000 Immortals ( Immortals were always 10,000 any casaulties replaced immediately).

Leonidas had stationed 1,000 Phocian volunteers on the heights to guard that path. The Phocians were not expecting such an outcome and they weren't ready.Not wishing to be delayed by an assault, Hydarnes (commander of the 10,000 Immortals) ordered his soldies to fire "showers of arrows" at them. The Phocians retreated to the crest of the mountain.

Leonidas learned that the Phocians had not held and he called a council of war at dawn. During the council some Greeks argued for withdrawal in the face of the overwhelming Persian advance, while others pledged to stay. After the council, many of the Greek forces did choose to withdraw. Herodotus believed that Leonidas blessed their departure with an order, but he also offered the alternate point of view that those retreating forces departed without orders.

In Thermopylae stayed the Spartans, 700 Thespians, led by general Demophilus and the Thebans that according to Herodotus were held as hostage against their will.

At dawn Xerxes made libations. He paused to allow the Immortals sufficient time to descend the mountain, and then began his advance.

The Greeks this time sallied forth from the wall to meet the Persians in the wider part of the pass in an attempt to slaughter as many Persians as they could. They fought with spears until every spear was shattered and then switched to xiphoi (the short swords that the Greeks used). In this struggle, Herodotus tells us that two brothers of Xerxes fell: Abrocomes and Hyperanthes. Leonidas also died in the assault.

Unknown and unremembered by most, 1,000 to 2,000 Helots or Spartan slaves died fighting alongside their masters in the last stand.

Receiving intelligence that the Immortals were advancing toward the rear, the Greeks withdrew and took a stand on a small hill behind the wall. The Thebans deserted to the Persians but a few were slain before their surrender was accepted.

Xerxes ordered the hill surrounded and the Persians rained down arrows until the last Greek was dead. Modern archaeologists have found evidence of the final arrow shower.

After the battle when the body of Leonidas was recovered by the Persians, Xerxes, in a rage at the loss of so many of his soldiers, ordered that the head be cut off and the body crucified. This was very uncommon because the Persians had the habit of treating enemies that fought bravely against them with great honour.

Only one Spartan lived from the battle (i don't remember his name), because Leonidas ordered him to leave to inform the greek fleet, which fought in a naval battle in Artemisium against the persian fleet, that Greeks lost Thermopylae.

This Spartan fought after in the battle of Plataea (479 BC).

Forgive me if i have any mistake.

 

thanks panathinakos ,a lot of stuff i didnt know ...did this sacrifice save many civilians or save any cities from xerxes ..the delay and cost must have slowed down the persians at least a week...

 

Excellent, thank you panathinaikos

 

We don't know why Leonidas and his men decided to stay in Thermopylae.

According to Herodotus Leonidas stayed because of an Oracle, which warned that either Sparta would be conquered and left in ruins or one of her two hereditary kings, descendant of Hercules, must sacrifice his life to defend her.

Many believe that with their sacrifice, they gave time to the retreated army and to the greek fleet, to Artemisium, to go away.

Other believe that Spartans couldn't leave because of their laws, which said never to surrender, never to leave a battlefield or flee. When a Spartan soldier went to battle his mother and his wife gave him the shield and told him " Ή ταν ή επί τας" which mean or with your shield or uppon it (dead). But i don't believe this is the reason cause their law said never to retreat from a battle, but they didn't need to give a battle they could leave in order and no one could tell them anything.

We don't know why these men stay to fight. Maybe they love so much their country and had no problem to sacrifice their lives.

After Persian won the Greek army in Thermopylae, the Spartans and the others Peloponnisian cities prepared to defend the Isthmus of Corinth and the Peloponnese, while Xerxes sacked an evacuated city of Athens, whose inhabitants had already fled to Salamis Island.

After Xerxes burned down Athens, his fleet gave a very important naval battle against the greek fleet. This battle was the naval battle of Salamis (480 BC). Greeks won this battle and they destroy the persian fleet.

Another mystery of battle of Thermopylae is why greeks sent so few army.

According to Herodotus Xerxes was curious as to why there was such a small Greek force guarding Thermopylae and interrogated some Arcadian prisoners. The answer was that all the other men were participating in the Olympic Games, a very important event for them. When Xerxes asked what the prize for the winner was, "an olive-wreath" came the answer. Upon hearing this, Tritantaechmes, a Persian general, said to Mardonius: "Good heavens! Mardonius, what kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honour". In addition, in that period Spartans had an important religious fest, they celebrated the Carneian Festival, and they couldn't sent their army so Leonidas took his 300, all of them had left them behind sons in perfect age to take care their families and if their father died they could fight. 300 was his personal fighting unit so he could took them anytime he wanted. Herodotus writes that Leonidas was idolized by his men, and they could do anything he wanted.

Some modern historians, such as Bengtson, claim that the purpose of the land force was to slow down the Persian army whilst the Persian navy was defeated at sea. Another theory is that the land army was expected to hold back the Persian forces in the north and defeat it through attrition, epidemics, and food deprivation.

Some have argued that the Athenians were confident that a small Greek force led by Leonidas would be enough to hold back the Persians otherwise, they would have already vacated their city and sent their whole army to Thermopylae. But i don't believe in this because Athenians had almost all their army on the greek fleet that fought at the same time in the naval battle of Artemisium.

 

wow ...sure big games are important but to short change national defence for a track and feild event seems kinda shortsighted and not very socrates like ......i wonder how the ancients were able to keep track of the movements of an oncomeing invader , was it hit and miss , dumb luck ...did they have some kind of early warning system ..a profesonal spy network ?...some one had to be paying attention...its not like a spy could pick up a phone and say ...get ready ,their comming!!!!..i mean ,the messenger would be hard pressed to get his message to leonidas much faster than a marching feild army...

 

Not at all - a messanger can move as fast as his horse can gallop, while an invading army marches as fast as the slowest supply wagon. Plus armies take a good chunk of the morning to strike camp, get into marching order, and get set off, and lose a chunk of the evening to reverse the proceedure and set up camp for the night. 10 miles a day is good time for an invading army of any real size.

 

The Persians attacked in waves. First were the Medes, and after them the Shakae and the Kissians.Most probably, the Immortals attacked at the end of the 1st day. In order to confront them, the Spartans attacked almost singlehandedly.

Shortly after first contact was made the Spartans started a feigned retreat
(and not against the Medes).

Seeing that, the Immortals begun chasing them as far as the second "gate" in front of wall. At that time, Spartans reversed their formation back to the solid phalanx and along with the other Greeks caught the Persians off guard and ultimately pushed them back.

It's the path of Anopaea that cut through Mt Callidromon and lead to the back of the Greek camp(i've got a photo of the area where the path starts, i hope to find it).

The Spartan that escaped the battle was named Aristodemos who suffered from an eye disease and was incapable of fighting.Along with him there was another Spartan--named Euretos--with the same problem. So, Leonidas decided to sent them back. However, Euretos returned in the field shortly before the final battle was joined in order to die with his comrades despite his illness.
Aristodemos on the other hand, returned to Sparta only to be treated with despise for dishonouring his city. Next year he fought bravely and died at the battle of Plataea ,against the Persian army under Mardonius, in order to redeem himself.

Every Greek belonged to a city. If someone was exiled or deprived from his political rights considered his situation even to be equal to death. The city was so much important because it offered the citizens the utmost benefit that was freedom. So in order to maintain it, they were willing to give their lives for it.

 

Well I went to see the film last night. Definately a case of 'we don't need no stinking historical accuracy' but entertaining. Certainly I've never seen so many severed limbs, heads, sprays of blood in one film. Also the slowmo's make sure you don't miss any details. I think Baywatch the movie is likely to be the only film that will ever have more slowmo bits.

 

Some historians argue that there wasn't actually a transition in the types of armour used as there was in the type represented in art. However it's likely that, indeed, during the early 5th century the bell cuirass was slowly giving way to pressed linen composite cuirasses. This type of cuirass became more and more common in the 400s BC. Not for the Spartans though, they switched from full bronze to mere tunics at some point during this period.

The shield was actually called the aspis, the word hoplon indicated the whole of the hoplite panoply.

Technology, as always, is pretty irrelevant in war though - the Greek spear was barely half a mater longer than the Persian one at this point and could hardly have made a big difference. The Greeks did not use the Xyston yet, and certainly not the Sarissa. Persian spears and swords were certainly capable of piercing Greek shields and armour even if their arrows were not. The terrain was the key feature in this battle.

Majorwoody: not all homosexuals are of the effeminate type. The institutionalized homosexual relations among Greek men of this period were certainly not seen as an expression of femininity but rather of masculinity; a real man had a boy lover. Opinions expressed about this in the movie 300 are historically inaccurate

Ricky: shame on you for trying to watch this movie as if it had anything at all to do with history. I'm usually with you on these things but this time you should really have known what to expect. This movie is sheer undiluted entertainment and any similarity to actual historical situations or persons is almost accidental I agree with Ebar on it.

The only thing I found ironic and amusing about the historical accuracy was that the spears used by the Greeks were typically Persian (note the apple-shaped counterweight which was a distinct feature of the Persian Immortals...) whereas the Persians used Boeotian (Greek) shields...

 

ricky , in the movies horses seem to be able to gallop all day ..in real life an ordinary garden variety horse can run full speed for about a quarter of a mile ,hence the word ,quarter horse.....cowboys and cavalry often change mounts several times a day and must be followed by large horse herds in order to keep a fresh mount under them ...a trotting horse can of course easily outstrip infantry without getting winded...a cautious rider with only one mount will often trot on foot himself if he wishes to keep his horses strength in reserve....[/quote][/i]

 

Having slated the film from my erspective, I should in all fairness point out that if you are a fan of graphic novels and want to see what one would look like in film then 300 is excellent.

I just wish they had not picked this topic.

 

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the spartiates were slave owners and warriors aristocrats , freedom for them was a dirty word ,
they were famous for their stoicism and restrain , never ever showing any emotions , the movie is making them into a World Wrestling Federation clowns

Leonidas the king of sparta and his personnal bodyguards ( 300 ) answered the call of their enemy athenes by going north to join an assembling force of allied greeks
the main spartiate army ( dorian )was keept at home by the council and would wait until athens (ionian) got butchered and ... then save greece ....politics ,politics
holding the pass of the hot springs was stopping the persian supply fleet from getting water for its rowers , they could only carry a couple of day supply, rowing is thirsty work , to be caught dry is a sure way to defeat by the athenian navy, no water , no supply fleet , no advance by the main persian army .

the greeks had been falling back down the coast, wasting persian time .
at thermopylea leonidas plugged the road to the spring with his 300 plus 700 beotians who had lost their home and would not fight much longer , might as well use them up !!
it was a rear guard action ,Leonidas was a professional , dying was not really the point, wasting time was
a greek shepherd showed the persians a path around the pass , the immortal elite guards , ran through it fully armed and in the morning fell on the back of the greeks , the phalanx is strong at the front but piss poor all around

exit the rear guard action ,

the real fighting took place one year later when the spartiate general pausanias took 30.000 spartiates and other greeks to cut the persian army to ribbons .

The persian empire reverted to the succesful and far cheaper practice of buying off greek politicians ,
a revered democratic custom to this day


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