Korean war ...

Not so while a go i get a bit more interest in Korean conflict.I will not go in background of war,but extreme interest for me was the part when Chinese infantry,only with light weapons push back and knock US forces who had much more heawy weapons by pure supreme tactics. What caused that US get such a suprise and get totaly owerunned,when only bright thing in that point was good coordinated retreat?

 

were the US defeated by tactics only?

I assume that the chinese light infantry were not as disadvantaged due to the terrain which prevented the US employing their heavier weapons in overwhelming focus.

Were the US soliders interested in fighting? I always thought that the Korean war was the first were the troops didn't truely understand the cause and thus lacked the motivation to charge into death which is sometimes required to obtain victory. I can image a lot were also very tired of fighting and just wanted to go home if they ha already served in ww2.

FNG

 

While the Chinese soldiers initially lacked heavy fire support and light infantry weapons, their tactics quickly adapted to this disadvantage, as explained by Bevin Alexander in his book How Wars Are Won:

The usual method was to infiltrate small units, from a platoon of fifty men to a company of 200, split into separate detachments. While one team cut off the escape route of the Americans, the others struck both the front and the flanks in concerted assaults. The attacks continued on all sides until the defenders were destroyed or forced to withdraw. The Chinese then crept forward to the open flank of the next platoon position, and repeated the tactics.

Roy Appleman further clarified the initial Chinese tactics as:

In the First Phase Offensive, highly skilled enemy light infantry troops had carried out the Chinese attacks, generally unaided by any weapons larger than mortars. Their attacks had demonstrated that the Chinese were well-trained disciplined fire fighters, and particularly adept at night fighting. They were masters of the art of camouflage. Their patrols were remarkably successful in locating the positions of the U.N. forces. They planned their attacks to get in the rear of these forces, cut them off from their escape and supply roads, and then send in frontal and flanking attacks to precipitate the battle. They also employed a tactic which they termed Hachi Shiki, which was a V-formation into which they allowed enemy forces to move; the sides of the V then closed around their enemy while another force moved below the mouth of the V to engage any forces attempting to relieve the trapped unit. Such were the tactics the Chinese used with great success at Onjong, Unsan, and Ch'osan, but with only partial success at Pakch'on and the Ch'ongch'on bridgehead.


That i mean when i say good tactics. Allso this:
The Chinese march and bivouac discipline also minimized any possible detection. In a well-documented instance, a CCF army of three divisions marched on foot from An-tung in Manchuria, on the north side of the Yalu River, 286 miles (460 km) to its assembly area in North Korea, in the combat zone, in a period ranging from 16 to 19 days. One division of this army, marching at night over circuitous mountain roads, averaged 18 miles (29 km) per day for 18 days. The day's march began after dark at 19:00 and ended at 03:00 the next morning. Defense measures against aircraft were to be completed before 05:30. Every man, animal, and piece of equipment were to be concealed and camouflaged. During daylight only bivouac scouting parties moved ahead to select the next day's bivouac area. When CCF units were compelled for any reason to march by day, they were under standing orders for every man to stop in his tracks and remain motionless if aircraft appeared overhead. Officers were empowered to shoot any man who violated this order.

 

Also came down to bad intelligence on the US's part...

First of all, they didnt expect an attact, and didnt prepare for one...

Secondly, MacArthurs intelligence officers wrongly estimated that there were only 35,000 Chines soldiers in the theatre... All unequipped, poorly trained gits who posed no real threat...

When the attack began, this estimate was stepped-up to 105,000 poorly trained gits

In actual fact, the Chinese attacking force was 300,000 strong, and spearheaded by battle hardened combat vets with 20+ years experience in the Nationalist civil war... They were professional soldiers who fought using professional tactics... This suprised the UN, some companies were even able to slip behind UN lines by dressing as South Koreans, when the UN learned this they ordered their forces to 'be wary', which of course reulted in several friendly fire incidents against the South Korean allies.

Suprise and confusion greatly aided the Chinese advance... When the UN re-orginised (and got rid of MacArthur) they were able to regroup and go on the offensive

 

years of evadeing jap and nationalist recon airplanes had made the red chinese army invisable to spotters ..."the army that casts no shadow "moved large distances
at night and hid by day
and had battalions of sweepers and fixers who could hide the passing of tens of thousands of men

 

UN, particulary US, forces didn't expect China to get involved.

The UN forces were not inept as some make it seem. They took control of the peninsula very quickly. The massive size of the Chinese army was under estimated and lead to field commanders planning in such ways that made them vulnerable.

 

I c ,so bad intel from US did not notice 300k chinese troops moving in Korea?
And when they did,they estimated 35k troops.
So bad intel+element of suprise,basicly underestimated a oponent,what is huge mistake.

 

The UN didn't get rid of MacArthur, President Truman fired him for publicly disagreeing with him. The offfensive had already begun before he was removed and Seoul had been retaken.

In regard to the Chinese entry into the war and throwing back the UN forces, it should be pointed out that though the US had large forces committed and did a lot of the fighting, the bulk of the forces were South Korean.
There is no doubt that intelligence failures were involved. China was closed to western intelligence and only through air reconnasiance could estimates be made.
In the initial assault the ROK divisions and the US 1st Cavalry division were thrown back and badly battered but the 7th Marine Regiment in a three day battle at Sudong Gorge badly mauled the CCF 124th Division.

The US Eighth Army was for the most part made up of inexperienced garrison troops and they performed badly when facing CCF forces who were battle hardened after years of guerilla warfare. They performed better after receiving better leadership and gaining combat experience.
The US Marines performed much better from the beginning.
In addition to the defeat of the 124th CCF division by a regiment of Marines at Sudong Gorge at the Chosin Reservoir the 1st Marine division numbering about 22,000 was forced to retreat after being surrounded by the CCF 9th Army Group(12 divisions) numbering over 125,000 men but in the process the Marines so badly mauled several CCF divisions that they were essentially destroyed and never again saw combat. In the process the Marines carried out all of their wounded and dead as well as all of their equipment. This ranks as one of the finest fighting withdrawals in history according to many military historians.

 

I read somewhere that Mig 15s (at least when they first appeared) were being flown by the Soviet airforce and, although the UN knew this, neither side would publicly disclose this as admitting to open conflict between UN and Soviet forces may have lead to an escalation - possibly WW3.

 

I believe the part about the Soviet pilots is true. It is also believed the Soviets had ground war advisors in North Korea.

The UN didn't pay close attention to China in the preparation for the conflict. They were worried about the threat from the Soviets. As Grieg stated, the only real intel we had on China was aerial recon.

The UN had suficient forces to drive the communist from the south and hold them in check. This is what they sent and this is what they did. They didn't expect China to send ground troops in the huge numbers that they did. It has been reckoned that China had more troops than they had weapons and food to supply them with. Many Chinese troops had to pick up dropped weapons and died of disease/cold.

 

So why china entered war? Maybe coz the US forces was to close to chinese borders and they was not shure what will be the next. Maybe will be smarter to stay on south Korea ground,then to push in Nort korea soil with invasion.NK army was repeled anyway,and more less destroyed.

I readed somewhere that MacArthur was put away coz he wanted to use nuclear weapon,and US considered to use Nuclear weapon in North Korea against chinese troops?

 

there were defo ruski pilots and intelliegence officers there and the UN/US knew at the time but kept it silent

FNG

 

There is no doubt, given what we know now, that Russian pilots participated (not that it changed much) but I'm not certain that the US knew of this at the time. Other than capturing a Russian pilot, which didn't happen, how could they know for sure who was in the cockpit of the opposing fighter?

 

I think the reason China got involved is that they found it a great opportunity to spread Maoism rather than let the Soviets continue to spread Marxism. It would also show the world that China was a new power to be reckoned with and the USSR was not the only socialist country that could change the world.

It also gave the Chinese military a lot of experience in fighting a modern war.

 

There were "rumours" of russian pilots. Some of the yanks must've thought "these guys are too good, they cant be korean/chinese". Some of the stuff they were pulling off could have only been done by experienced pilots, and the WW2 era pilots probably suspected russian involvment. Theres a show on the history channel called "Dogfights". There was an episode or two on Mig Alley. I would recommend it. I'll look for it on youtube.

 

Well, I couldnt find any korean ones. Heres one on the Israeli air force. Theres others on the video column to the right of the video screen.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uu21W-ls_bE& ... ed&search=

 

I love that show!

 

By listening to their radio traffic? Pilots talking in Russian rather than Chinese or Korean would surely have given the game away.


China's official reason for entering the war was, as I'm sure you all know, to protect poor North Korea from the nasty warmongerers... Basically they said 'if you get the Northeners out of the South, that's fine, but if you invade the North yourself, that's not.'

The UN decided to call their bluff, and doubtless regretted that decision. As JCalhoun said it catapulted China onto the world stage as a power to be reckoned with, rather than being everybody's poor relation.

 

Since the Russians were denying any involvement I doubt that there would be any open radio communications in Russian.

 

I saw a program discussing the dog fights over Korea and the US were aware at the time as the US pilots reported back that there were europeans in the cockpits of the migs.

There were several cases of the planes flying in sequence and some visual communication between the pilots on the opposing sides.

I don't think they had definitive evidence such as a captured pilot but then again the US wanted the information buried to avoid further international conflict and build up so who knows what they picked up. Surely at least one ruskie bit the dust and had their wreckage sieved by the CIA.

FNG