U-Boat Flak vs. Aircraft

There are several incidents, when U-Boats repelled attacks by aircraft(s), one famous would be the "Fight back" of U-758 on June 8.1943. This boat was attacked by eight Avengers of the USS Bogue and downed two of em, while returning home without severe damage. U-763 downed two Liberators on Feb. 4th and a Halifax on the next day. U-648 downed a Whitley on May 17th, a Sunderland on Nov. 20 and a Liberator on Nov. 21 1943. These are just some examples of a successful fight against aircraft, considering that they even downed a Mustang (U-155), Beaufighters and so on, how did these subs manage to down an aircraft or several, while others (the major part) failed. At least 220 subs were lost to aircraft attacks, had those mentioned just luck? How skilled were the Flak Gunners of the U-boatforce (?their trainig program?) and how useful was the AA-Armament, for example were there any apparatus to balance the swell


http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

U-758



Regards,
Che.

 

I believe luck was one and element of surprise another factor. I believe it was better for u-boat to dive to safety than to fight back the attacker.
Although KM tried some dedicated AA-boats but after initial success, allied come out with countermeasures.
http://www.uboat.net/technical/flak.htm
http://www.uboat.net/types/u-flak.htm

 

It is mostly luck, I think.

A U-boat (or any submarine) is not designed to be a steady gun platform in any but the calmest of calm seas.

 

Well when you think that a U-Boat only has several machine guns, but a Liberator, or a Sunderland has many guns, and when the aircraft has made its dive and has passed its target, the tail gunners can keep firing, it is no wonder that so many U-Boats were sunk.

 

Aircraft machineguns weren't much of a danger for U-boat itself but for the crew on the deck. Main danger were the bombs, depth charges and homing torpedoes which were carried by bombers.

 

U-boats towards the end of the war typically had an 88mm gun (which could be used as AA) a quad 20mm gun (flakvierling) and a handful of machineguns.

A lucky hit from the 88mm, or a good burst from the 20mm could knock down a plane.

 

I guess all that the plane had to do was shoot the gunners, and then they were free to bomb the sub.

 

Indeed (although it sounds easier than it was in practice). This is why ASW planes had progressively more firepower added - for example later Sinderlands had (in addition to the front turret) a battery of 4 machineguns added in the nose

 

I would imagine there was an element of luck and surprise. A plane making a bombing running would probably be coming in straight plus it would generally by one plane against one sub so the AA would be concentrated on a single target.

Saying that more AA guns did have one big disadvantage. They increased the amount of underwater drag and noise the sub generated.

 

I think it was the late war XXI's (someone correct me on this if need be) that had no armament other than it's torps.....or else it was the one with the duel 20mm turrets, I forget

 

Some Liberators (B-24) were even fitted with a chin mounting for 4x 20mm cannon

 

simplest method

the planes also had the option of just staying out of range and calling in a DE to handle the problem

 

Not usually. Unless very close to a convoy the odd were the nearest friend ship was hours or days away.

Besides Coastal Command crews had to endure lots and lots of flying over empty water. I'd imagine the rare opportunity to have a go wasn't to be passed up.

 

Actually the antiship guns of theU-boat's were not suited/capable for AA as they had a max elevation of only 30 degrees!
BTW U-boats used 88mm (Type VII) and 105 mm (Type IA, IX XB) Anti ship guns (both not for AA).

 

Pretty amazing that a U-Boats' AA defenses could shoot-down a Short Sunderland. Those gunnery-crews deserved a "cee-gar."

Tim

 

Any plane can be shot down; all you have to do is hit it enough times or in just the right spot. Of course, that can be difficult.

 

It was all the more surprising, since the Sunderland was so well armed that Luftwaffe aircrew used to call it the "Flying Purcupine" ! Mind you, I know of at least one Sunderland unit that used to paint lengths of broomhandle black and stick 'em out of any spare window or aperture, seemingly to indicate the presence of many more guns and gunners !
In a book I read about the US air force attacks on the Ploesti airfields, it was reported that the crews of a number of B-17's were en route to North Africa from the UK. Flying high over the Bay of Biscay they noticed a Sunderland successfully fighting off an attack made very much lower by six JU-88's. Conscious of being unable to assist, the Fortress crews were very pleased to watch ALL six of the -88's being progressively shot down into the sea. It was generall agreed amongst the American aircrew that it was the superlative gunnery of the Sunderland crew that acounted for the six kills.

 

Returning to the subject of combat between U-boats and Allied aircrew.
After incurring very high losses amongst U-boats either leaving or returning from patrols when crossing the Bay of Biscay. The German navy decided to seriously up gun the a.a. weaponry of U-boats and order all captains to stay surfaced and fight it out with Allied aircraft. It was thought that submerging would always be fatal, whereas staying on the surface and fighting would be less so.

 

Which book?

Yeah, thanks to them getting rid of the radar-detection devices they never stood much chance.

 

BG's Fables.

Very interested to know where did they stick the other end of the broomsticks?