Well guys Once again you are being called upon to help with your vast knowledge. I am trying to get as much info about a Lancaster III ,ED863 ,156 SQN ,Shot down on the 16/17 June 1943 on a raid on Cologne my great uncle SGT GM Murray was on this A/C he was the rear gunner. I have all the usual info - Where buried * T/O TIME * Name of crew However there are a number of questions that i require answered which i am having great difficulty with. * The callsign was GT ? * Where was the actual crash site ? ,I know that they are buried in Rheinberg War Cemetery but this seems to be the collective burial place for lots of aircrew that crashed within the Area of Cologne. * And what was the cause Nighfighter or Flak ? I have currently on order from the Library Luftwaffe Nightfighter claims, combat claims 1939 - 1945 hopefully i am going in the right direction Also one other thing of interest is that the Pilot was W/O DCC Busby CGM (This is only second to the Victoria Cross)So what is the background to this ?. thanks to every one and hopefully you can be of some help. Neil
Welcome to the forums. You may have seen this site on 156 squadron. It says he was only on three missions before being killed. http://www.156squadron.com/view_aircrew.asp?pCrewId=283 Some of the other members may have other places to look for more information.
Marinman without a location of the shootdown or crashsite it will be difficult in identifying the culprit ~ Flak/Nachtjäger there were 12 Lancasters claimed as shot down this eve by NJG 1, 3 and 5. Even with the German nf claims book just released which by the way is a flop you may still be asking yourself many questions. I can tell you that Dr. Theo Boitens Nachtjagd war diaries is due for publication late 2006 covering over 1700 German nf pilots, pics, maps and of course victory claims with some pilots receiving bios. Erich ~
Thanks TA152 & Erich I already know about 156 sqn site. Erich didn't the Luftwaffe have different areas of responsibilities in the Nachtjager role and as the Bomber stream came through they then attacked them in that square, so let me pass this by you, if the areas of NJG 1, 2 & 3 are marked on a map, and claims were matched up to the map and the one's closest to cologne would this not help to reduce the number of lanc's shot down. or if you have any other ideas as i think i may be going off on a tangent. much obliged Neil
you desperately need the AIR report for the date mentioned from the Englsih PRO. this will include a route map toward the target and the route away from it back to England. You then can try and place the crash locations upon that particular map. To answer your question yes the NJG's would cover certain sectors or at least be responsible for it. Example : NJG 1 from the Bight towad the Netherlands and northern Germany with thier Bf 110G-4's and He 219A's but it was not uncommon if the fuel was reserved in thec raft for them to make claims on raids deep into Germany such as the central areas, the same for NJG 3 placed in Denmark could cover Holland as well as northern secetion of Germany but even towards the central area. Much depended on ground to air control at the time and the heavy jaming by the rAF was not quite in existance yet, so when a acertain area of traiffic got heaviest then the NJG a/c would hover towards the beacons in place providing by markings by ground control center hopeful this makes some sense ? E
I'm afraid that this is a really tough one, Neil. Like me, you've obviously turned to Chorley & Wadsworth and there's hardly any information available there ; unusually, in the case of Chorley - 'Bomber Command Losses' usually gives some hint as to the fate of the aircraft. The info about Busby's CGM should, I think, be available somewhere at the PRO and the same source could probably shed a litttle more light on the aircraft. But I rather think that Germany is somehow to be the only likely source of information as to the actual crash site, either from burial records or from aviation archaeologists. Will do some more thinking on this.....
Erich, Martin Thanks for your input, I suppose the brick wall i have now hit is the public records office it has got to that stage that a visit is now innevetable but as you can appreciate a visit is not as easy as i would like. Martin does the PRO do enquiries on your behalf ?. Regarding Germany do you have any ideas to points of contact. Thanks Neil
the real problem with the PRO is that - currently, anyhow - they do not have an on-line service, or the capability to work on behalf of researchers. Everything is based on personal visit which can be very time-consuming. As for German sources, I really have no idea at all, I'm afraid. In this country we have the BAAC ( British Aviation Archaeological Council ) who can at least point you in the right direction. I know of no such organization in Germany - maybe someone else can enlighten us ?
( Later.. ) I've been doing some thinking about this and can make another more general suggestion. Firstly, there's no easy answer.If you intend to research the story seriously, you must be prepared to spend a lot of time and effort. The upside is, you can meet some interesting people on your journey and you will learn a great deal. A couple of years back I researched the story of one particular PFF Lancaster and, even though I knew exactly where it came down, it took a year-and-a-half to tease out many of the details. But focussing on one crew and one aircraft in this way made me learn a lot about Bomber Command's 'Battle of Berlin'. Without wishing to teach you to suck eggs, I'd recommend two books related to this kind of enquiry : - 'Fie By Night' by Jennie Gray ( Grub Street, 2000 ) and 'Or Go Down In Flame' by W Raymond Wood ( Greenhill, 1993 ). Both books are very detailed stories of one person's quest for historical facts, one RAF, one 8th Air Force. They won't give you 'the answer', but both books contain useful ideas and are fascinating to read as well ! Hope this helps....
I would definately go to PRO.............period ! the place has numerous reprots on all aspects of the night air wqar including German captured docs as well as RAF bomber group standings for the evenings missions. the materials located within are a must have; now if I can only figure out their online site and get access or get someone with time and serious interest to locate some docs for me .........no matter I have time
I agree. I have both books and they are a fascinating journey into the wartime career of their respective family members. Another one in this series that I can very much recommend; "Taking the Wings of the Morning"by Bob Body. Bob is the nephew of F/L J.W. Menzies DFC. He was a pilot with 161 Special Duty Squadron and was killed on 6 July 1944 on a mission to drop Dutch Agents... See http://www.161squadron.org/ for details.
