Use of word "Commodore" in Dutch naval ship log?

Hoping there is someone here that could assist with this question - I am translating parts of a ship log to better understand the events during a specific convoy (TAG63). Long story.

The ship in question is HNLMS Van Kinsbergen, a Dutch cruiser, and obviously the ship log is written in Dutch. I've have tremendous support from a gentleman who has translated all relevant pages for me, but it's hard to get the correct 'tone' when neither of us are of naval heritage - one just don't get the Navy lingo in English, let alone translated from Dutch.

More specifically this question relates to the usage of the words "Commodore" and "Cdore".

At first I ignorantly assumed Cdore was short for Commodore and both translated to 'commander' which would make sense as the Van Kinsbergen indeed had the Convoy Commander.

Now, perusing the events described in the log(s) I'm suspecting that the use of 'Cdore' more is a generic reference to a ship Captain while Commodore refer to commander, in below example a phrase is highlighted where both are used

'Vice Commodore' I interpret to be refering to the Vice Commander of the convoy.
'Cdore S/S El Nil' I (now) suspect refer to the captain of the ship El Nil.

Anyone out there that could provide clarification in the use of these expression in naval-Dutch?

 

Definition of "Commadore" A naval officer of high rank, in particular an officer in the U.S. Navy or Coast Guard ranking above a Captain and below a Rear Admiral.
-the senior Captain of a shipping line.
-the president of a yacht club.

 

Thank you - yes - the above goes well vs US Navy. My Commodore’s are however Dutch

 

It looks as though in the WW2 period the RNN had the same practice as the USN, captain with four stripes, straight to Rear Admiral with two stars. This would mean that your commodore is probably a senior captain commanding a specified group of ships and is referred to as "commodore" as denoting his command presence. And the "vice" part is easy, the vice is the next guy in the chain of command, not a rank, just an identifier . . . probably the next officer in seniority and probably on a different ship in the group. From an ONI JAN-1 Uniforms manual, page 126:



And before anyone jumps, yes, by 1943 the USN did establish the rank of commodore with one star, but it was a temporary rank that went with specific billets. Most obvious were the commanders of fleet air wings. But if one moved on from ComFAW whatever to some other duty, that meant a reversion to captain . . . you see this mostly when a FAW type commodore goes to command a carrier; automatically goes from commodore to captain. By the end of 1946 there were no commodores in the USN, all were either reverted to captain, promoted to rear admiral (and I can't think of a one), or retired. Arleigh Burke was a commodore while chief of staff to Marc Mitscher in 1944-1945 and sported one star. When he was PCS'd out of that position, instant captain.

 

Just like the Marine captain commanding the ship's detachment is called "Major" . . . though I don't think they do that anymore. It was a pre-war thing and the subtlety is now pretty much lost.

 

The simplest explanation is a Commodore is an admiral of the lowest flag rank who is the commander of something like a convoy. That is, each ship has a Captain, merchant or naval, and the Commodore has command over the entire convoy of ships, escorts and merchants. Commodore is a special flag rank created mostly, if not entirely, for things like commanding a convoy.
In peacetime, it doesn't exist because it is created specifically for a wartime need.

 

Thank you - this helps and would support my newfound belief that when the log states 'Commodore' it is foremost referring to the senior ranking officer in command of the ship (Van Kinsbergen) Commander J.J.L. Willinge in this case. But it would also seem that the same (similar) designation, or reference, would be made to the convoy escort commander.

I think I've got a good handle on the 'Commodore' bit now - which leaves us the 'Cdore' reference.

In my example above the reference is made to 'Cdore S/S El Nil' which is a civilian passenger ship, in the same example there is also reference to 'Cdore' of SS Dorothy (a freight ship).

Would it be correct to state that the Dutch naval-lingo uses 'Cdore' as a generic way of referring to someone in command of a ship?

 

Thank you - this further strengthens my understanding as outline in above post but raises a question. I may (then) have prematurely jumped to the conclusion that the Dutch naval-lingo used 'Commodore' to refer to the commanding officer of the ship as well as the convoy commander - this is wrong?

The 'Commodore' is exclusively in command of the convoy while the Captain is in command of a ship - they may be the same officer, as in this case - and at that point one simply referred to the 'Commodore' even for ship-related things?

That the convoy commander was aboard the Van Kinsbergen was never a doubt, this was conclusively stated in both the USS Biddle and Van Kinsbergen ship logs.

In an interesting Van Kinsbergen entry from 3 June 1943, as convoy TAG63 reached Guantanamo, and the convoy would proceed towards New York under the new designation GN63, there is word that the GN convoy commander is not yet on station to take over convoy command. From a blimp information is received that USS Biddle would assume this duty until relieved (which occurred a little later)...I digress - point being - the way the ship log now simply uses 'escort Cdr.' as reference while using 'Cdore' to refer to another ship captain.

 

The commander of, say, a type flotilla or squadron is referred to as a "commodore." He might be a captain or he could be a commander in actual rank, but he's the senior commander of whatever type gaggle of ships. Not a rank, a title; he does not get to slap a star on his collar, but does get to fly a commodore's command pennant (or what is also known as a "broad pennant" or conflated together, "broad command pennant") from whatever ship is his pennant ship. Note "pennant ship" not "flag ship". And whatever ship that is may, or may not, have its own captain; he might wear two hats, captain of the ship and commodore of the task unit. Only an admiral of whatever grade gets to fly a "flag", hence "flag ship." Just like the captain of a commissioned vessel has the title of captain even if only an ensign in actual rank . . . has nothing to do with the actual rank on his collar, he's still 'the captain." All goes back to the days of the sailing navy.

The commander of a convoy is also titled "commodore" and has his own pennant.

After my father retired in 1971, a rear admiral, about a year later, I dimly recall that he was called back to temporary duty for about two weeks to attend what he called "convoy school". This was back in the days of constant updating of the Reforger plan to move great convoys of troops and equipment to Europe in the event the Warsaw Pact hordes looked like they were about to saddle up and headed west, or actually had. So, the navy periodically called retired officers in to discuss nuts and bolts of the naval side of running the convoys to the east so the active duty types were left free to work their mischief where ever. Only went once, so I suspect it was a year group thing, the most recent retires were called to attend and after that, a lot of, probably thankful, silence. Had any of that had come about, and he were called, he would not be flying a commodore's pennant, he'd be flying a two-star admiral's flag.

Command Pennants

 

ISTR wasn't there a convoy commodore? The senior officer commanding the convoy? Wasn't he the senior naval officer present? Or was the convoy and escort commodore separate?

 

Admirals and commodores don't have a ship of their own they command. Instead, they fly their flag (hence why these are called "flag officers") from one of the ships in the formation they have command over. Thus, in a convoy it might be convenient for the commodore to be aboard a merchant ship that has accommodations for him and his staff aboard the ship. In the 1940's--well, up through about the 60's--merchant ships often had some cabins for passengers along with those for the crew. These cabins were usually furnished as they would be on a liner for the average passenger making them perfect to accommodate the commodore and his staff.
The ship might be outfitted with additional radios for use by the commodore in controlling the convoy or formation.

So, the Cdore S/S Eli Nil etc., would be a reference to the ship the commodore of the convoy was aboard. The reason there is a distinction made between the convoy and escort has to do with those being two different services cooperating. The convoy is merchant marine civilian ships with civilian crews (although during wartime there could be a naval detachment aboard to do things like operate guns or the like) and the escort which are military / navy ships. Thus there are two separate commands present, the merchant marine and navy each with its own commander. The commodore is in overall command of both.

 

I appreciate and value everyone's input here, thank you!

R Leonard % T.A. Garnder - you both opened this one up for me with another angle that seems to start aligning the dots. To make it more coherent I need to compile a timeline with relevant events.

The subject person of my research was a passenger on the SS El Nil that was one of the 25-some ships in convoy TAG 63 (Trinidad-Aruba-Guantanamo). My ambition is to try learn as much as possible about the journey, I was not expecting to find much really when I set out - not much more than an approximate route for the journey compiled from the positions stated in the deck log.

However, the SS El Nil is mentioned several times in the Van Kinsbergen decklog (that carried the Convoy Commander). I have the deck log pretty much translated from Dutch but, as this thread gives evidence to, interpreting the Dutch-navy-lingo was one thing...and understanding the whole convoy concept another.

I need to digest and regroup!

 

Having had the time to digest and connect some dots now.

First of all, thanks to all you knowledgeable people chipping in, it appears that there is really no difference between the US or Dutch naval-lingo when it comes to the use of 'Commodore', 'Cdore' or 'Commander'. Being better educated in the naval-lingo and convoy setups I've completely abandoned my first ignorant assumptions...

In summary, much of it has been stated already, each convoy had a Convoy Commodore that oversaw the order of the merchant ships. As I understand it this was a civilian title but usually was a retired naval officer with some seniority.

The Escort Commander was an active naval officer who commanded the attached escort and ultimately was responsible for the timely and safe arrival of the convoy.

Perusing the deck logs and other documents in the above light the dots aligned and connected. I was so thrown off course by the numerous references to 'Commodore' and 'Cdore' in the Van KINSBERGEN deck log.

It appears that the TAG-63 Convoy Commodore was Lt. Cdr. Geroge W. Dillinder aboard the SS DOROTHY with Escort Commander Cdr. J.J.L Willinge aboard the Van KINSBERGEN.

As SS DOROTHY suffers an engine breakdown at sea 2 June 1943 short of Guantanamo the Convoy Commodore is moved to SS EL NIL, effectively then becoming the convoy flagship for the remainder of the journey to New York (transitioning to GN-63 convoy designation proceeding from Guantanamo).

The numerous references to 'Commodore' and 'Cdore' in third person in the Van KINSBERGEN deck log just did not make sense...until I finally got that they referred to the Convoy Commodore and not what I wrongly assumed to be the Convoy/Escort Commander.

Adding to the great mystery was the passenger immigration information as filed in New York upon arrival - see attached below.

I just could not for my life understand why a (relatively) low ranking retired officer could travel with a Comm Staff of 3, he wasn't even a flag officer! And why was the information handwritten? It now makes sense.



*phew*

Thanks all that assisted.

 

An old Administrator of Darwin Commodore Eric Johnston...I met the man on a couple of occasions.

 

I think in this case, in relation to my original question in this thread, I've now learned that 'Commodore' here was used as a designation to the Convoy Commodore i.e. the person in charge for the merchant ships in the convoy.

But to answer your question - yes - I believe so - from Wikipedia:

Commodore is a senior naval rank used in many navies which is equivalent to brigadier or brigadier general and air commodore.

Commodore (rank) - Wikipedia