Arras

I thought we could start with one of the earlier tank battles, when a joint Anglo-French armoured counter-attack played merry havoc (for a time) with the German attack.

Discuss...

 

Unfortunately, the anglo-french attack was badly coordinated, and done with insufficient forces.
Nevertheless it was quite a shock for the germans who had not yet experienced a massive armoured attack.

 

Good start Ricky. This is exactly what I had in mind for this section.

Unfortunately I don´t know the first thing about the tank battle at Arras. Perhaps somebody would be so kind to give me a brief summary ?

 

Two very interesting facts:

The Battle of Arras was a WWI battle.

This Forum is entitled "Tank Battles of WWII"

 

Yes, and fighting took place at Arras in WWII as well, between the 19th and the 24th of May 1940 if I recall correctly. I know Matilda Is ( A11, the small one ) were involved ( 4th RTR ? ). I believe that the 7th RTR was the only regiment in France which had Matilda IIs ( A12 ) at the time, but were they involved in the fighting at Arras ?

 

perhaps we can start with Flavion France May 15 1940

 

Yes Skua,the Major General Harold Franklin the 21 May 1940 has in his grouping (Frankforce)of 58 MkI tanks and 16 MkII Mathilda tanks,supported by some Somua of the 3°D.L.M.

 

During the battle of Arras (21st May 1940), the British force attacked west of Arras and was composed of :

Right column :
- 7th Royal Tank Regiment (23 Matilda I and 9 Matilda II)
- 8th battalion, the Durham Light Infantry
- 365th battery, 92nd regiment, Royal Field Artillery (12 25Pdr howitzers)
- 260th battery, 65th anti-tank regiment (12 2Pdr AT guns)
- One platoon equipped with 3 French 25mm AT guns
- One motorcycle platoon from 4th Northumberland Fusiliers

Left column :
- 4th Royal Tank Regiment (37 Matilda I and 7 Matilda II)
- 6th battalion, the Durham Light Infantry
- 368th battery, 92nd regiment, Royal Field Artillery (12 25Pdr howitzers)
- 260th battery, 52th anti-tank regiment (12 2Pdr AT guns)
- One platoon equipped with 3 French 25mm AT guns
- One motorcycle platoon from 4th Northumberland Fusiliers
- General Martel and is headquarter staff

That makes a total concerning the equipements of :
60 Matilda I
16 Matilda II
24 25Pdr howitzers
24 2Pdr AT guns
6 French 25mm AT guns

The British troops faced the 7.PzD and the SS motorized division 'Totenkopf', the 5.PzD was arriving from the east. The Matilda II havy tank spread some panic in the German ranks, mainly in the SS 'Totenkopf' positions where several troops simply disbanded, without mean of destroying the Matilda II. But the 8.8cm Flak and the use of artillery in direct fire solved the problem.

The French troops began their attack later, covering the western flank of the British attack and faced the SS motorized division 'Totenkopf' and the Panzer Regiment 25 from the 7.PzD. The French forces were composed of elements from the 3e DLM (division légère motorisée) but mainly of the 13e BCC (45 Hotchkiss H35 tanks). The French had a total of about 60 tanks in this battle, therefore probably about 15 Hotchkiss H39 and Somua S35 from the 3e DLM itself. They were soon confronted to direct 10.5cm artillery and Flak fire as well as Pak and tanks. They destroyed at least 3 Panzer IV and 6 Pz38(t) from the PzRgt 25. There is no precise data concerning the French losses but after the whole battle the 13e BCC had lost about 10 tanks and the 3e DLM itself lost also probably about 10 tanks. The 11e RDP (Régiment de Dragons Portés) had only light losses. The French troops covered the retreat of the British units.

The British lost 62% of the tanks (47 tanks) before retreating and had about 50% in the infantry. 75% of the reconnaissance vehicles (16 from 21) from the Northumberland regiment were also lost.

Concerning the whole German losses, the 7.PzD lost 89 KIA, 116 WIA and 173 MIA mostly POW as well as about 20 tanks and many Pak and various vehicles. The SS 'Totenkopf' lost about 100 KIA and 200 POW.

Regards,

David

 

Questions.

Am I correct in thinking that the 88s AT capabilities were first realised during the Spainish Civil War?

The 88s that stopped the rot at Arras were they already issued with AT rounds or were they having to use their normal AA rounds?

 

Hello,

Yes the 8.8cm Flak was already used in direct fire during the Spanish Civil War. AFAIK in France in 1940 the Germans had AP shells for their 8.8cm guns. There was also a special self-propelled version dedicated to AT role (initially anti-fortification role) : the 8.8 cm. Flak (Sfl) auf Zugkraftwagen 12t (Sd.Kfz.8 ) also known as "Bunkerflak" or "Bufla" (6 vehicles in the 1. schwere Kompanie/Panzer-Jäger-Abteilung for a total of 10 produced. 3 of these vehicles have been lost in France in 1940).

Regards,

David

 

I found this map on:
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/karten/frankreich40.htm
on this link there is other maps of a great number of the 1940 battle.
A other usefull link and a picture of it:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/dia ... rance.html
a raid of RAF Bleimheim on Germans armours on the Bapaume-Arras road the 20th May 1940.

 

A few questions :

I see the Battle of Arras involved both the 5th PzDiv and the 7th PzDiv. What types of tanks were they equipped with, and how many ?

And were the "Totenkopf" Division equipped with armour as well ?

Was the SdKfz 8 "Bunkerflak" used at Arras ?

Thanks.

 

The 10th May 1940 there was in the 7°Panzer Division:225 Panzers;
34 Pz I;68 Pz II;91Pz 38(t);24 Pz IV;;8Pz Bef 38(t).
For the 5°Panzer Division;327 Panzers;
97 PzI,120 PzII,52PzIII,32PzIV,26 Pz Bef.
On May 1940 the Totenkopf was a Motorized- Infantry-Division-d,normally they don't have Panzers,only Armoured cars like SdKfz 221/231/232.
The 88mm Flak auf Zugkraftwagen 12t was used by the Schwere Panzer-Jager-Abteilung 8 who was with the 1Pz Division with the Von Kleist Panzer Gruppe in the Marle,Crecy,aera, but I am not sure.

 

Hello,

The 5.PzD was just arriving in the area, I don't think they really participated to the so called 'battle of Arras'.

Concerning the 'Bufla', it was operational :
- in Poland
- in France along the 1.PzD and 2.PzD (there could therefore having been engaged in areas like Montcornet or Crécy-sur-Serre against the 4th DCR but I have no info about them in these battles), at least 2-3 vehicles are lost in France
- in Russia (with the XXXIX Panzer Korps -- Heeresgruppe Mitte --) where all the vehicle were destroyed probably, they served until March 1943.

David

 

Indeed during the Fight at Arras the 1PzD was more a reserve,than a Division share with the Battle.
For the fights in which the 1PzD has to take part in the Montcornet aera there are some informations and pictures in "La ruée des panzers des Ardennes à la mer of Jean-Robert Gorce éditions Heimdal.

 

Was it 1 Pzd that 2 DCR and more specificallly 15 BCC faced at Montcornet/Marle or was that another german division?

 

Hello,

I will chack in my books etc. to try to make a report about the battle in the Montcornet and Crécy-sur-Serre area. The French attacks on the German flanks are in fact not really attacks there but rather a probe, a reconnaissance action with destruction of several little German elements.

On 16th May several elements of the 2e DCR including tanks of the 15e BCC are involved and on the German side I can't remember, elements of the 6.PzD perhaps.

On 17th May spread elements of the 4e DCR were engaged, it was hardly a real division, it had been formed only 7 days before !
They various German units and elements of units protecting the flank of the German advance, mostly elements from the 10.PzD and units from the 1.PzD and XIX.AK (mot) including for sure these units :
- Aufklärung Abteilung from the 10.PzD
- Panzer Aufklärung Abteilung 90
- 666.Pionier Bataillon for the defense of Montcornet itself (what en evil unit ! )
- 56. Flak Bataillon mainly for the AT defense of the area (8.8cm Flak)

Regards,

David

 

In January 1940 2°D.C.R.is made up of;
a half brigade of heavy tanks B1bis with the 8° and15° B.C.C.
the 4° half brigade of light tanks Hotchkiss H39 with the 14°and 27°B.C.C.
the 17° B.C.P.
the 309°R.A.T.T.
May 10 the 2°D.C.R.is stationed in reserver in the aera of Reims
May 14/15 during the night the 2°D.C.C.is availability of the VI°armée and the Keiller General oder his fold in the South of Aisne.
On the evening of May 15 have finds two companies of B1bis at Saint-Quentin,four companies of Hotchkiss at Wassigny,one company of B1bis at La Chapelle and two companies of B1bis at Hirson.
All this units one transported by railroad.
The remainder of the unit travelled by the road,all that in great confusion.
These element arrive at Guisse,with their arrival,they receive order to make half turn.
At this time the Panzer of Reinhardt exceeded already Signy and move towards Montcornet,various elements of the 17°B.P.C.are attacked by the Kradschutzenbattaillon of the 6°and 8°Panzer Divisions.
May 16 the 2° D.C.R.is completely dissociated.
The 2°D.C.R. will be sacrificed,it cannot on this situation of complete confusion,to overcome with the power of the joined together 1,2,6 and 8 Panzer Division and the Stukas of the Lutfwaffe.
The only really offensive opération will be carried by a grouping of the 15°B.C.C.with the 2/15°B.C.C. and 3/17 B.C.P.which for mission of will have realesed the road of Marle-Montcornet-Liart.

 

Even though the counterattack at Arras ultimately failed, I still think that it was a magnificent effort on the part of the Allied troops, especially at that stage of the Battle of France.

 

On a site where tanks like the Tiger are mentioned so often its interesting to remember that the Germans were the first to experence facing tanks that could laugh off anything their own tanks could throw. The Matilda II mostly tends to be remembered in the Western Desert where it quickly became obsolete but in 1940 it could be as formidable an opponent as the tiger would be a few years later. Pity there weren't a few more and they weren't better used.