Some things wich i think are not right at the moment.... -All this lead to a huge reduction in the service life of the engines (figures of a 12-hour lifespan are often quoted) 20 Hour lifespan is quoted many times! -The Me262 was a twin-engine plane – but it could not fly on one engine. It could fly with one engine but engine failure at landing/take off would often end dissastrous! -Its cannon (Mk108) were powerful, but had a slow rate of fire, a low muzzle velocity and were prone to jamming. When entered in service in 1943 Mk108 was received with skepticism, but this was caused mostly because of its tendency to jam (especially those mounted in wing packs). But soon the rate of fire was decreased to 500RPM and the jamming problems dissapeared. Not all Me-262's carried the same armament Fot instance the Me 262A-1a/U1 (3 built) had two 20mm MG 151 cannon with 146 rounds each, two 30mm MK 103 cannon with 72 rounds each, and two 30mm MK 108 cannon with 66 rounds each! -The undercarriage was rather weak. This relates especially to it's front gear (maybe something went wrong with redisigning it from the taildrager it was?) -In addition, the Me262 required a long and solid runway for take-off and landing, which limited their rapid deployment options, and left whole squadrons vulnerable to being grounded by a few well-placed bombs on their runway. Piston-engined fighters could deploy from Pierced-Steel Planking (PSP) laid over practically any surface, which also lent itself well to quick and easy repair. Not completly true as it could take off from gras runways but like every other aircraft (except seaplanes and amphibians maybe) a solid runway was prefered (wich PSP actually delivers as the auther notes)! Eraly 262 set it's gras runway on fire.... -And actually, sheer speed was also a disadvantage. It meant that the plane was more demanding to fly compared to piston-engined fighters, and the closing speed in combat was far higher, meaning that the pilots would need faster reactions and better aim. This is actually not true at all! Transition for Fighter pilots to the Me-262 was easy and actually not that hard at all! The Speed difference was troublesome when the transition was made by bomber pilots... bomber pilots were trained to fly the much faster 262! Another comment i would like to add as if development of engines and the Me-262 would have been earlier on in war the engines wich where completed at the end of war would have been available much earlier! This leads to technicians/pilots being trained earlier! For Instance Jumo 004C, D and E (what about the 012 and 022) could have been available (much earlier)! I won't say the me-262 could have won the war...but it would have changed some aspects of it if development was at it's fullest!
not even adolf galand belive that the me 262 was a wonder weapon, that is was a quantum leap, yes but due the nature of the engines, lack of strategic materials, made them almost useless, do not take me wrong, it is a beautifull plane,well designed considering the "short time since R&D" to production, the fact was that germany was doomed since the beggining, to try to do battle in 2 fronts, it was madness, and no wonder weapon would provide the long awaited victory to the germans. the same can be said on the other germans weapons, not matter what they could not do what the germans hoped for, victory
This is were you go wrong...this is a part of an interview with Galland: WWII: What do you recall about the death of ace Walter Nowotny, and do you feel that his death had any impact on Germany's Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter program? Galland: I had been telling Hitler for over a year, since my first flight in an Me-262, that only Focke Wulf Fw-190 fighter production should continue in conventional aircraft, to discontinue the Me-109, which was outdated, and to focus on building a massive jet-fighter force. I was in East Prussia for a preview of the jet, which was fantastic, a totally new development. This was 1943, and I was there with Professor Willy Messerschmitt and other engineers responsible for the development. The fighter was almost ready for mass production at that time, and Hitler wanted to see a demonstration. When the 262 was brought out for his viewing at Insterburg, and I was standing there next to him, Hitler was very impressed. He asked the professor, "Is this aircraft able to carry bombs?" Well, Messerschmitt said, "Yes, my Führer, it can carry for sure a 250-kilogram bomb, perhaps two of them." In typical Hitler fashion, he said "Well, nobody thought of this! This is the Blitz (lightning) bomber I have been requesting for years. No one thought of this. I order that this 262 be used exclusively as a Blitz bomber, and you, Messerschmitt, have to make all the necessary preparations to make this feasible." This was really the beginning of the misuse of the 262, as five bomber wings were supposed to be equipped with the jet. These bomber pilots had no fighter experience, such as combat flying or shooting, which is why so many were shot down. They could only escape by outrunning the fighters in pursuit. This was the greatest mistake surrounding the 262, and I believe the 262 could have been made operational as a fighter at least a year and a half earlier and built in large enough numbers so that it could have changed the air war. It would most certainly not have changed the final outcome of the war, for we had already lost completely, but it would have probably delayed the end, since the Normandy invasion on June 6, 1944, would probably not have taken place, at least not successfully if the 262 had been operational. I certainly think that just 300 jets flown daily by the best fighter pilots would have had a major impact on the course of the air war. This would have, of course, prolonged the war, so perhaps Hitler's misuse of this aircraft was not such a bad thing after all. But about Nowotny....
Hi Ome_Joop, all corrections and suggestions are welcome! I'll update that This one I really do not know one way or the other - could you provide a source to show one way or the other? I'll add that the Mk108's issues were fixed, but I left out the various weapon fits as you suggested as they were fitted to insignificant numbers of planes. I did mention that weapon fits could be easily altered though. though it did need a long runway, and grass fields & weak undercarriage do not mix well... I'll make a small change, and let me know if you agree or not. Faster landing speeds, faster closing time in combat... But point taken, again, I'll amend slightly. But their development was at the edge of German (or anybody's) metallergical expertise - they could not have been ready much earlier.
I think this part of an interview with Galland about Nowotny's death tells all! Galland: "Several bombers were called out as shot down, and Nowotny radioed that he was approaching. The flight leader on the ground, Hans Dortenmann, requested permission to take off to assist, but Nowotny said no, to wait. The defensive anti-aircraft battery opened fire on a few Mustangs that approached the field, but they were chased away, from what I could understand, and the jets were coming in. One Me-262 had been shot down (note: piloted by Franz Schall), and Nowotny reported one of his engines was damaged. He was flying on the right engine alone, which made him vulnerable. I stepped outside to watch his approach to the field, when an enemy fighter pulled (Nowotny's slayer) away not far from us."
I do wonder how the 262 performance and weight distrubution changed during the change from tail dragger to frontgear wheel!? Weigth on it's nose would have increased and so the centre of gravity...
That would be accurate. A 262 with an engine out was a sitting duck for any Allied piston engined fighter that chanced upon it.
wow,if galland had his 300 jets up an goin by summer 44 he prolly could have swept the skies and commanded the channel ...looks like hitler saved our bacon ,once again....the lufwaffe had 300 pilots of the caliber of bong or malan to put in those jets too...it coulda been really ugly
Hi majorwoody10, you certainly do spark lots of debate... If you put the 300 best Luftwaffe fighter pilots into Me262s, what would happen? Well, firstly, 300 fighters cannot cover the Western, Eastern and Southern Fronts, so either the Luftwaffe deploys the jets in such small numbers they are ineffective, or the Allies can gain superiority in at least some areas. Secondly, you would never get 300 that all worked at the same time. Thirdly, as in the myth-buster, they really could not have swept everything from the sky. In reality, they would be attacking the American bombers - and being knocked down by American escort fighters. Fourthly, if you withdraw the top 300 pilots, you therefore weaken the Luftwaffe's piston-engined efforts, both in pilots and experiance being passed on. Plus, putting an ace used to a Bf109 in a Me262 would largely be a waste of his experience. Like putting a Spitfire ace in a Mossie. That's all I can think of for now...
All the Allies would have to do to counter this "300 Me 262" unit would be to do what they actually wound up doing: put heavy fighter patrols over the German airfields and catch the jets taking off and landing or on the ground. There were more than enough Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Lightnings, Spitfires, and Tempests to do so, without significantly diminishing the bomber escorts. And if they try to fly them off highways, use free hunting tactics to catch them on the ground or when they are otherwise vulnerable.
yea..i guess when the enemy can put a garrison of p51s on constant orbit over your home base your pretty well screwed even if ur flying f16s
Some of the Luftwaffe flak units were made-up of women in the last months of the war. The Germans were very fond of flak-traps and other means to lure fighters into a kill-box of flak... especially at low-levels over their airfields. Tim
Do you have a source for that? My understanding is that the jamming problems were not caused by the rate of fire, but by ammunition belt links made form poor-quality steel, which would pull apart under the G-stress of manoeuvring. The Germans rated the gun as capable of 600-650 rpm (actually a high rate of fire for such a destructive gun - about the same as the 20mm Hispano II) and I have never read anything about slowing it down. At the end of the war they were testing a MK 108 nA capable of 900 rpm. That always seemed a bizarre combination to me. I could understand two MK 103 with two MG 151/15 as 'sighters', as the ballistics were similar, but the three types of gun in that installation all had quite different trajectories. Did any of them get into action? That was a Willy Messerschmitt tradition - all of his planes were notorious for having weak undercarriages Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
I have to search for that one but i've read it a couple o'times on many forums but i think i got it from some book somewhere ( i've also read they increased firing rate to 850 rpm)! But it seems very logical to decrease firing rate to increase lifespan..less stress Very high G-stress in an aircraft wich supposed to be not maneuvrable seems not very logical either in it's bomber interception roles? 1 was used by Heinz Bär...IIRC his last 3 victory's (P-47) where made with it According to the stormbirds (the people who remade those 262's and restored US-Navy 262 Vera) it really has to do with forces that Willy did not take into acount when the aircraft was remade into a noise wheel setup...so the taildragger didn't have that problem (that one only put your lawn on fire)
but remember that the me 262 tail drager had a problem trying to take off, only after one pilot press the bracke a little that the tail bait the air and the plane was airborne
