chinese army info needed

What was the position of the nationalist chinese army in 1944-1945. like weapons,tanks,training ect

 

The question is, which faction of the Chinese are you talking about? They are by no means a homogenous population at this time with the same social mores/values. But I'm sure this will turn into a good thread since anything Chinese is so rarely discussed in the WW2 context.

What I would like to know is did the Soviet Union supply any weapons of any type to the pro communist during this time frame?

 

I was talking about the one frindly to america the nationalist. Their was the communist chinese pro- soviet and the nationalist pro-american.I geuss you know that but what I know they gave china weapons mosinnagats and ppsh I like to call it push. And even a small band of soviet airmen flew for china.But I don't know about what was going on between them during 1944-1945.

 

Even the Nationalist Chinese were pretty disparate from what I've read. There were quite a few "warlords" who were almost independent of the central government and the distribution of equipment varried considerably among them and the Nationalist army under direct control of the central government.

 

This isn't exactly on point, but you might find it interesting none the less. This was posted by a fellow over on the now defunct Historic-Battles forum, and I liked it so much I copied it (with Dan’s permission) for my own files.

First, I want to state that I am keenly aware of China's suffering in WW2. China endured a tragedy that equals or surpasses that of every other nation in the war. Having said that, suffering is no substitute for military effectiveness.

While China tied down a number of Japanese army units, they tied down virtually no air and naval units. Japan's war with the U.S. was primarily a naval and air war, and China contributed nothing to this aspect. In fact, China was probably a net loss for the U.S. Logistic difficulties made support of China very expensive in manpower, resources and time. And the result? China's army secured no real successes against Japan. At great expense and effort, Chinese coolie labor built B-29 bases at Kweilin in South China. As soon as they became operational, in late as summer 1944, a weakened Japan was able to overrun these bases.

Not without reason, General Stilwell referred to Chaing Kai Shek as "Cash My Check." Chaing's war strategy was simple; threaten to drop out of the war to wring money and equipment from the U.S., and then sit on it, let the U.S. defeat Japan, and then use the equipment against the Communists after the war. Under Chaing's cynical and corrupt leadership, they contributed little or nothing to the war effort.

No, I don't condone Japan's aggression and atrocities against China. The Japanese record in China is as deplorable as the German Holocaust. Where I differ is in China as a contributing military partner. Sorry, but they were little better than worthless. (end of Dan’s material)

After signing the non-aggression pact with the Nazis in 1939, and defeating the Kwangtung Army at Khalkin Gol, the USSR started to withdraw it's help from China, both the Communists and the Nationalists. After that time-frame, both its planes and pilots returned to the USSR. I believe they left some war making material behind which Mao put to good use.

It wasn’t until January of 1941 that the US included China into the Lend Lease program and in the fall (Oct) they sent 36 M3A1 scout cars to Chaing Kai-shek. It also developed the 1st Provisional Tank Group with the Chinese in 1943, and equipped them with Shermans, Stuarts, half-tracks, and Bren carriers. I believe these armored forces went into battle first in Burma in 1944.

See:

China's History - World War II Vehicles, Tanks, and Airplanes

and for a good section on the 1st Provisional Tank Group:

*1st Provisional Tank Group - CBI Theater of World War II

The total L-L aid to China was minuscule compared to the other recipients, only $1.6 billion out of over $50 billion in Lend-Lease funds and material went to China. The U.S. regarded Chiang as an important ally able to help shorten the war by engaging the Japanese occupiers in China. Chiang, in contrast, used powerful associates such as H. H. Kung in Hong Kong to build the ROC (Nationalist) army for certain conflict with the communist forces after the end of WWII. This fact was not understood well in the United States.

The U.S. liaison officer, General Joseph Stilwell, correctly deduced that Chiang's strategy was to accumulate munitions for future civil war rather than fight the Japanese, but Stilwell was unable to convince Franklin D. Roosevelt of this and precious Lend-Lease armaments continued to be allocated to the Kuomintang.

See:

Chiang Kai-shek: Encyclopedia - Chiang Kai-shek

And while the next is from Wiki, it does show that the armor supplied to the Nationalist Chinese was pretty limited in scope. Upon the American entry into the war in 1941, it began to supply China with AFVs which the Soviets were unable to provide.

Goto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Chinese_armoured_forces_(1927-1945)

 

wow i did not know that Chinese were using Shermantanks i thought they only used Stuarts.

 

The Nationalist Chinese received very, VERY few Shermans, and they were (I think) the M4A4 versions with that bizarre 30 cylinder Chrysler engine that were for British L-L consumption. And even those Shermans were in the Provisional Tank Group which was dominated by non-Chinese personnel.

The Nationalist Chinese also had French, Italian, and even a few old German Panzer Mk I and IIs in their service.

 

Thats another thing i see Chinese troops with German helmets and weapons where did they get it from?

 

Would love to see some pictorial evidence of the tools used by both the nationalist (pro democracy to a point) and the communist used.

 

I found this on a web site.
[SIZE=-1] When the M1935 combat helmet went into production in 1935, units of the German Army (Heer) and Air Force (Luftwaffe) eagerly awaited the finished product. Much to their dissatisfaction, the first shipment of completed helmets did not reach their units until 1936. This delay, in part, was due to a number of large foreign orders that took precedence over the requests of the German Armed Services (Wehrmacht). It is important to note that German firms produced the M1935 helmet for foreign export prior to World War II. The largest of these shipments were sent to the Chinese and Spanish governments. While virtually identical to the German issued M1935, most of the exported helmets did not have the same type of liner systems found in Wehrmacht issued helmets. In addition, the majority of foreign export models were not stamped with production code numbers and maker's marks like those found on original wartime era German combat helmets. When export ceased in 1936, governments which had purchased German made helmets began to fashion their own models based on the general design. As a result, many 'German style' helmets were manufactured throughout the world. Spain as well as Latin American countries were the first to mass produce German style helmets from the original German design1. [/SIZE] Notes:
1 Some governments manufactured German style helmets through the mid to late 1950's. Today, these helmets are often sold as 'German export' or 'German manufactured' helmets dating from the pre-World War II era. However, they were not made by German firms but rather manufacturing plants in these countries that copied the essential design elements of the helmet thereby producing a design that looks similar in overall appearance. Spain was the leading producer of such helmets which continue to be misrepresented today as German in

 

Seems a little biased with a lot of negatives eh?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"While China tied down a number of Japanese army units, they tied down virtually no air and naval units. Japan's war with the U.S. was primarily a naval and air war, and China contributed nothing to this aspect. "

They never really had an airforce nor navy in the beginning in 1937. This guy should have compared the industry compabilities of Japan and China. China was in turmoil since after 1911 with an unstable government and with many foreigners taking over China. Japan's government was stable and had a very good and strong industry. They had their own military industry building and engineering which help design and build ship and planes. The Chinese had to import ships, airplanes, even small arms (although they copied in sufficient amounts for their own infantries). Very unfair statement.

"In fact, China was probably a net loss for the U.S. Logistic difficulties made support of China very expensive in manpower, resources and time."

Well it was very difficult to move supplies to China. The "Hump" was difficult to fly over. The Pacific was filled with Japanese subs. There are probably other reasons.

"Chaing's war strategy was simple; threaten to drop out of the war to wring money and equipment from the U.S., and then sit on it, let the U.S. defeat Japan, and then use the equipment against the Communists after the war."

There is a flaw with that... China can't simply drop out of the war. Dropping out means to surrender basically. I am not sure what would happen if China just surrendered...but it would probably mean a fresh supply of manpower and resources for the war machine.

Under Chaing's cynical and corrupt leadership, they contributed little or nothing to the war effort.

Japan's offensive became a stalemate by around 1940, even with "planes" and "ships" and other advanced weapons the Chinese didn't have. Leadership corruption ran all the way down the line. Leadership was also limited.

As for Dan, one would expect him to spell "Chiang" correctly.


sigh, a lot of was based of some books I believe that are biased and of course good ol' Stilwell which of course he had a lot of negative things to say and Dan should have seen other sources...

 

I want to add more to these statements...

"Chaing's war strategy was simple; threaten to drop out of the war to wring money and equipment from the U.S., and then sit on it, let the U.S. defeat Japan, and then use the equipment against the Communists after the war."

After reading the book, The Generalissimo, by Jay Taylor, Chiang's strategy was to increse the supply of military arms to China. The US was focused on Germany and the Pacific and Asia was of the least concern. The only way to "persuade" the US was to pretend to threaten to drop out and sign a truce with Japan. Chiang never like the "dwarf pirates" as he called the Japanese. He would never give up to the Japanese because of the loss of face and shame that caused him and the Chinese was to great.

"Under Chaing's cynical and corrupt leadership, they contributed little or nothing to the war effort."

General Stiwell was not the best either. He nearly destroyed Chiang's best armies in the South in the defense of Burma in 1942. Stiwell had zero experience in fighting the Japanese.. even the British. The British had a well trained army in Burma, Malaysia, and India, but did not contribute to the war effort either. Their army faced defeat after defeat by the Japanese. After that debacle, Chiang lost confidence in Stiwell.

Also the US probably did not help the war effort in the beginning with the Doolittle Raid. For a few destroyed buildings in Japan and a public boost of morale in the US, it caused great harm to China. The Japanese weren't happy and killed many civilians and destroyed everything in the area just to get revenge and find the Americans that were involved.


"Sorry, but they were little better than worthless."

That is the most worthless statement I ever heard of (well that whole statement was basically biased and worthless ). Millions of Chinese soldiers died in the war and to call them worthless??

"The U.S. liaison officer, General Joseph Stilwell, correctly deduced that Chiang's strategy was to accumulate munitions for future civil war rather than fight the Japanese, but Stilwell was unable to convince Franklin D. Roosevelt of this and precious Lend-Lease armaments continued to be allocated to the Kuomintang. "

Well you should look at from the Communist standpoint too. They did not actively participate in the war, even though Stalin and the Comintern wanted the CCP to help fight with the KMT. Mao Zedong built up supplies from the Soviets to fight a future war with the KMT.

All sourced from the above book.

There are many pictures and drawings of those Sherman tanks painted with a face of the tiger on the front. I have seen those pictures with Chinese tank crews, not Americans.

 

HC8604, you're wrong to say the British and Indian armies (they were seperate forces) did nothing against Japan. Its an insult to all those who fought and died there fighting the Japanese, I'm deeply offended by the remark.

The British army in the far east was not well trained, or well equipped, same goes for the Indian army, the best units of both forces along with most of their equpment was sent to Africa from 1941 onwards. The Japanese defeated an army of raw recruits in 1942, air power was outdated and minimal at best.

Because the Japanese army halted at the Indian border (a big mistake) this trend continued, the bulk of manpower being sent to Africa/Europe unitl 1944.

The British Commonwealth and Indian armies inficted the heaviest defeat the Japanese ever suffered, at Imphal and Kohima, the the best Japanese army in Asia was bled white in the assault, British, Indian and Ghurka troops held firm. During this battle no quarter was given, the Sikh's and Ghurkas would've held to the last man. After Kohima, the Japanese began a fighting retreat leading back to Rangoon.

Whoever was asking about the Chinese, they recieved 883 M4A4's, they also had German Sdkfz221 (7.92mm machine gun) and 222 (20mm autocannon and 7.92mm mg) armoured cars and Russian T26 tanks.

 

When it comes to equipment, the Chinese used just about anything they could get their hands on. In machine guns for example they used in fair number:

Madsen M 1916,1930 and 1937 (Danish manufacture)
French Hotchkiss models
Czech ZB vz 26, 30, 53 and 60 machineguns
German MG 08
Italian Fiat Mitriaglice 14
Along with US British and Russian supplied weapons.