De Lisle Commando carbine

Suppose that a small, specially trained unit will operate behind enemy lines. Their mission is very specific, they need to hit fast, disappear into the night and leave no residual evidence they were there. They must travel light and silently. They need a short, handy, quiet carbine length weapon. To insure that no residual evidence is left, empty brass can’t be scattered about. What weapon could fill such a bill? That was exactly the question the British pondered during 1942.
Where to find a ready-made, short, handy, silent, low recoil carbine for commando uses that wouldn’t scatter telltale brass? The answer was it didn’t exist at that time. The British realized they would have to build it themselves. It makes sense to use a cartridge already in the inventory. Additionally, it makes sense to use a readily available action and rework it. However the specifications would require more then a simple rework. Thus the De Lisle came to be.
In 1942 William De Lisle and Sir Malcolm Campbell began to develop a weapon that would meet the requirements of the Ordnance Board. By 1943 Prototypes were being prepared at the Sterling factory for submission to the board. It was decided to use the 45 ACP round as it was already in use by the British. They had quantities of Auto Ordnance Thompson’s and Colt 1911 pistols.
The De Lisle Commando carbine is basically a SMLE fitted with a M1911 magazine, a spent brass holder that catches the empties as they are extracted and ejected, a 8 .27 barrel and a 2 inch thick suppressor/silencer. A small forestock is under the suppressor. The weight was 8 lb, 2 oz. The rear sight was graduated for 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. The front sight blade had tapered protecting ears.
Since the 45ACP is subsonic, the De Lisle is truly silent! The suppressor/silencer contains a series of baffles to muffle the sound of a round being fired. The action was reworked to feed and extract the 45 round as quietly as possible. Three factories were involved with building the De Lisle’s. Since each specimen is virtually a “One Off”, minor differences will be seen in original, individual guns.

Keystone Arms De Lisle Carbine (Photo courtesy of Keystone Arms)​

SpecificationMeasurementCartridge:.45 ACP Length: 37.80in Weight:8lb 2ozBarrel Length:8.27inRifling:4 grooves LHMagazine:8 round removableProduction:1942-1945
130 De Lisle’s were built. They were extremely effective in terrorizing and harassing enemy troops. Often an enemy sentry would just drop in his tracks, dead. His fellow soldiers could not hear or see anything, yet a comrade was dead or wounded. A search conducted to find the shooter found nothing, not even expended brass. Soldiers who were constantly wondering if they were to be the next victim of a silent, unseen enemy became less effective fighters.
While the De Lisle didn’t account for large numbers of physical causalities the psychological effect on the enemy was well worth the effort.

The De Lisle had a shoulder stock, a barrel & sight radius 3 inches longer then a 1911 pistol; as a result it was very steady and quite accurate.

Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle - Surplusrifle.com

 

The designer was William De Lisle. It was based on a Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk III* converted to .45 ACP by modifying the receiver, altering the bolt/bolthead, replacing the barrel with a modified Thompson submachine gun barrel, and using modified magazines from the M1911 pistol. The primary feature of the De Lisle was its very effective suppressor which made it very quiet in action - indeed working the bolt to chamber the next round makes a louder noise than firing a round.[1] The De Lisle carbine was used by British commandos and special forces, and was accurate to 250 metres.
The De Lisle was made in very limited numbers; 129 were produced during the period of 1942 to 1945 in three variations (Ford Dagenham Prototype, Sterling production and one Airborne prototype). Thompson submachine gun barrels were modified to provide the .45 calibre barrel, which was ported to provide a slow release of high pressure gas.
The suppressor, 2 inches in diameter, went all the way from the back of the barrel to well beyond the muzzle (the suppressor makes up half the overall length of the rifle), providing a very large volume of space to contain the gases produced by firing. This large volume was one of the keys to the effectiveness of the suppressor. The Lee-Enfield bolt was modified to feed the .45 ACP rounds, and the Lee-Enfield's magazine assembly was replaced with a new assembly that held a modified M1911 magazine. Because the cartridge was subsonic, the carbine was extremely quiet, possibly one of the quietest guns ever made.
The De Lisle was used by special military units during World War II and the Malayan Emergency

De Lisle carbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

It was a very interesting and technically successful weapon, but the relatively light weight of the .45 ACP bullet meant that its effective range was very limited: the trajectory curve was like a rainbow.

The modern approach is to load very long, heavy, low-drag bullets (see here: Untitled Document ). With the benefit of hindsight, something similar could have been done in WW2 by necking-out the .303 case straight to something in the .40-.45 region and loading it with a full-jacket big-game bullet (round-nosed, but still much heavier than the .45 ACP). Any specialist gun firm could have knocked that up quite quickly.

 

The DeLile Commando Carbine shown, was SOLD to Keystone Arms, by the MANUFACTURER- Valkyrie Arms, Ltd.. Valkyrie Arms, is the manufacturer/Trademark owner, of the DeLilse series of firearms. In spite of rumors, Valkyrie Arms, IS STILL IN BUSINESS, and manufacturing the DeLilse Commando Carbine. Just trying to clear-up some confusion.

 

Tony- I agree, but- the result, would NOT have been as quiet, as the DeLilse. Which WAS the whole point.

 

More like adding to it. As I read it, you are the only one to mention Val here. The OP was regarding the historical version not the copy Val screwed people over.

 

EVERY SINGLE DeLilse ordered from Valkyrie Arms, WAS delivered. The DeLile pictured, IS a Valkyrie Arms gun. They are STILL being produced- and, with an improvement in the feed ramp.

 

I want one

 

Contact: orders@valkyriearms.com, subject "DeLilse". 6 are on the final assembly bench, now. Enjoy! They are QUIET!!

 

As long as the projectile was kept subsonic then yes it would be just as quiet, so Tony is exactly right. The more aerodynamic shape would help to extend effective range, straightening the trajectory. Accuracy would as a result also improve.

So Tony is spot on.

 

While I agree that 230 grains isn't light by any means (its a very heavy weight for a firearm projectile infact), a more aerodynamic shape will actually help at any speed.

 

For comparison there's the German silenced 9mm SDK rifle:

 

Thank you, for the pix of the German 9mm suppressed gun. TYPICAL German work- overbuilt, overengineered!! My only complaint- 9mm SUCKS, except in SMG's. Then, it's borderline. .40S&W is MINIMUM, for self defense. Of course, .25ACP is better than nothing! .45ACP, is perfect for suppressing, so is the .22LR. How about, a sub-sonic, HEAVY 45-70?? It might only be good for 100 yards, but- it would hit like a canon!

 

The 9mm is fine for self defense, don't know why some people think it isn't. Also the idea behind these silenced rifles no doubt is to take down the target without him making a sound, and thus accuracy is a must, and the 9mm parabellum is one of the most accurate pistol rounds around.

What matters in stealth operations is silence and accuracy, and since the 9mm is just subsonic but still fast and accurate it is perfect for the job.

The ideal round would be a heavy long and slender pointed boat tailed bullet going just under the speed of sound. Thus far no such round has been developed afaik however, and the 9mm is still the prefered round by spec ops, so my guess is that it fits the bill.

 

The Israelies use a silenced .22 rifle for mob situations. It is suposed to be used "non-lethally" but it turns out it is quite lethal. The idea was to "disable" the leader of the hord and disperse the rest. I personnally have fired a silenced .22 rifle that is legally owned by a friend and it is accurate enough to kill rabits with a head shot out to 100 m. The report is quiet enough to use in most urban settings, although that isn't what my friend uses it for.
My point being, the De Lisle was designed for a particular purpose, and the britsh had access to plenty of 9mm alternatives and chose the .45. It has great qualities, and is a very accurate round. In a longer barrel the round has more energy and speed than in the 1911 and is still subsonic. All things being equal, the British can be devilishly sneaky and the De Lisle is proof positive that they made a good choice in their engineering choices.

 

I own one for my M4A1 & one for my MP5K-PDW and have used Uncle Sam's suppressors operationally. So where does that put us in regards to your buddy's "unlabeled use" [excuse the medical jargon] of a .22 suppressor?

The British used the 45acp because any round picked up in the world would be subsonic. Normal, during WW2, 9mm loads were not. That's why Stens were ported, to make the supersonic rounds subsonic and resulted in poor penetration and overall performance. It would have been an unnecessary burden to add a special subsonic load when a cheaper and readily available alternative existed. Also, the De Lisle only had ~ 7.5" barrel so the velocity increase over the 5" 1911A1 isn't anything worth doing back-flips over.

 

I think they are great fun to shoot, and for squirell and rabit it's nice because you don't spook the pther critters nearby.
(Small-game psyc-ops weapon.)

 

The 22 LR was adequate for the job providing you were good enough to use it. My uncle carried a High Standard HD during the period of time he was overseas in China. According to articles I've read, and tales told by other relatives, he described it as being as loud as striking a match. They also stated that he made good use of it while he was over there. You have to be aware that he was the Marine Corps/Navy record holder for pistol shooting, and had won the U S championship a couple of years earlier and five more times following the war, plus won the world championship in 1952. He was the subject of four major magazine articles. Two each in Leatherneck and American Rifleman.

I watched him put on shooting exhibitions when I was a child, and he could do things you would have a hard time believing. Not someone you would want shooting at you.

He was attached to SACO and apparently tied to the OSS.