Forced Sterilization in US

Just read this article and had no idea such practice was somewhat common in the US. And it happaned as late as the 80's. This makes me sick knowing that US and Nazis had something in common.

"The state sterilized more than 7,600 people in North Carolina from 1929 to 1974"

"Pregnant by rape, young Riddick went into a North Carolina hospital in 1968 to give birth to her son. Years later, she learned she was sterilized.The decision was made by the North Carolina Eugenics Board, a five-person state committee responsible for ordering the sterilization of thousands of individuals in the name of social welfare."

What kind of sick person finds himself on a committee deciding others the right to procreate. Or we sure that only "rocket" scientists emigrated to the US from Nazis Germany.

"In all, 65,000 Americans were sterilized before the last program was shut down in the early 1980s."

"Only seven of the 33 states who ran such programs have even publicly acknowledged or apologized to victims of sterilization."

And here is the biggest insult to the injury
"North Carolina will become the first state to compensate victims of a mass sterilization program that targeted poor minorities in a 20th century eugenics program, offering a $50,000 a person"

$50K really? I think millions is more proper. Just how many people wins multimillion dollars over frivolous cases. I bet you I can slip and fall in any store and get more.

 

Cant really comment on this particular event...but if you saw some of the disgusting conditions some children were raised in. Only to have a tax payer payed "existance" usually on the streets or in an institution or a jail then you too would back Sterilisation in some situations...In the past it has been used for sick reasons like prejudice or racism...but to do it to prevent suffering for "ALL" concerned then i think it can be seen as the "brave" and responsible avenue...Some people just shouldnt have children. Who decides who these people are though??

 

This has been a dirty little American secret for years. I'm sorry CAC on this I must strongly disagree. It sounds like a simple, easy solution but it is inevetably frought with the potential of abuse. There must be better solutions to the problem, even if I confess that I do not have all the answers.

 

And our next subject of the day is eloctroshock therapy...any takers?

And should queen Elizabeth the queen mum and her family really have ignored her mentally ill relatives until death...I'll start on that one...errr....maybe I won't...

 

HMMMhmmmm.......perhaps all of us who in recent times thinks it is ok to waterboard (an established Geneva torture).........well just perhaps those soldiers that relieved themselves on the bodies of their war victims are just representing your view of torture in their behavior while at war......... unfortunately things do have consequences and sterilizing the unknown has nothing to do with who abuses children and I remind you there is a long line of people waiting to adopt many children in many parts of our country....so why should anyone be sterilizing unknowing suspects. Why should torture be so openly acceptable with the political leaders of our country.....as there will be consequences for this lack of respect for human kind......and now soldiers show us a consequence.

 

I do not agree. Who's right is it to play God and decide who can procreate. No ones. There are thousands of people, if not millions, who seem "normal" and have children, only to kill them, abuse them, rape them, etc. Also, keep in mind that those were "forced" sterilizations.

 

Great post Victor...And I agree but for me...someone who is a bit of a leftie, a vet, but never my country right or wrong...Questions should always be asked, bad leadership protested, objected to, sharlatens and hypocrites always exposed...I have a feeling that these marines should be treated differently from the ideolgy behind Guantanamo and the Iraq prison scandal, Felujah or any other instance...I feel there is something here with these guys that needs to be brought out and not let them be thrown to the dogs. I know there is worse not captured on video even my own troops probably...Heat of the battle...relief..no pun...The thought process behind what they did needs investigating. Its was not right, but I don't think on this occasion the whole US forces should be tarred...I'd like to see their explinations...there can be no plaudits, I'm not daft, but this particular case does not shine out to me as others..punishment must follow..but I think it would be wrong in this particular instance to throw these guys to the wolves...Some deserve to be...this lot for some reason seem out of place.

 

There's a lot here that needs to be addressed Victor. I will first state without reservation that the government should not have the ability to decide who procreates. The sterilizations can not be justified, period. These people were horribly wronged.

I do not think you can lump all the different incidents together.
-Waterboarding. I do not approve of torture but some things that are described as torture are not, stress positions and sleep deprivation for example. I've been waterboarded, placed in stress positions for hours on end, been stripped naked, bound and left laying on concrete in cold temperatures and had water poured over me. It's called SERE school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance & Escape). The treatment you recieve there is to prepare you in some manner for the far worse treatments you will recieve at the hands of your enemies. I'm alive and no worse the wear for it. Sleep deprivation is one of the prime tools many military schools use to stress their students to see how they perform under pressure.
-Abu Ghraib was a breakdown in military discipline. I do not condone or excuse their acts. These people were prisoners, and alive, and therefore were afforded certain rights as prisoners of war. Though protection from all interrogation techniques is not one of them. The things that were done had no intel gathering value, they were more akin to college fraternity hazing. These were a bunch of young kids without adequate supervision, lacking discipline and most of their superiors who later tried to make excuses were trying to cover their own ineptitude. Doubt me. Most people forget that the tards responsible for the scandal, also passed each other around and had, in addition to the photos and tapes that came out, produced copious amounts of inter-unit porn, both photographic and video.
-These current Marines that were shown on video urinating on three dead Taliban, they had recently killed. They should be punished for being stupid enough to video tape it. The Talban brought this on themselves. When the Marines first started redeploying from Iraq to Afghanistan they actually had a great deal of respect for them as warriors, and showed it. When the Taliban decided they were going to engage the Marines they would make sure non-combatants, (women, children and old people) were not in the area. They'd engage, were proficient in their tactics, would stand and fight until they were eventually forced to retreat or were killed. When we started the Sangin and Marjah operations, the Taliban would still fight, not as well, but they still largely acted as warriors. After heavy engagements and losses, they adopted new tactics. They knew they'd get killed so they shot then scooted, avoiding a response, we adapted our tactics and they changed theirs. Now they attacked from positions containing women and children, to use as shields. We adapted to that and they started only striking with booby traps. We started making inroads with the population, they started using beatings, torture and murder of any that didn't cooperate, regardless of age, or sex. They went from being warriors in the eyes of the Marines to being some type of despicable vermin not deserving of respect. A good analogy would be how an american soldier might view a Wermacht soldier in a line unit (deserving of respect) vs an SS prison camp guard (beneath contempt). What is sad is that these guys will be investigated and punished to protect the good name of the service and no one will look into what caused them to act as they did. The dead Taliban will become valiant warriors, that were standing up to the imperial might of the US. The Marines, malcontents that would desecrate these poor warriors. Never mind that these Marines would risk their lives rather than return fire and hurt innocents. That they protected the people while the dead heroes preyed upon them. I am really beginning to hate our PC culture.

 

A good analogy would be how an american soldier might view a Wermacht soldier in a line unit (deserving of respect) vs an SS prison camp guard (beneath contempt)

As one who can be first off the block on occasions to say oi...whats going on here...I think usmc has hit this running. I can live with that And as for sleep deprivation and stress positioning...Not something I've ever experienced apart from one night with Greta in Berlin...but usmc is correct again...Brits were done for it in Ireland in 70's and 80's...banned it when came to light...but funnilly enough...even though the terrorist or suspect terrorist never came across it any more..it was pretty normal training for our front line trigger pullers. May even have saved one or two of them in the Int corps.

 

Sorry dude, I screwed up my wording, I should have said "SS Concentration Camp Guard" not prison guard. I think Urgh caught the drift of what I meant but I do need to clarify.

 

No I got it usmc...And agree totally.

 

I am in agreement that all the things I mentioned are not of the same fabric....I am only using a wide variety of things to show how there is consequences. I didn't think that I mentioned any action by these troops in some way to draw down punishment or retribution as that is up to their immediate leaders who know what is going on. I do firmly feel resolved that if the leadership of our country stands in defiance of what we participated in establishing through direct and indirect influences at the Geneva convention....to fail to remain steadfast in our resolve is to open the door to all manner of thoughts that include the disrespectful treatment of our enemies or some segment of our own population in regards to sterilization, whether it be through torture or what these soldiers did. If one goes through the water boarding experience, this resolves nothing for me. It has already been decided by international law and even if we like it like candy it will continue to be viewed by the rest of the world in the same negative way.....as being unacceptable and disrespectful. By any measure whatever short term gain is made by its use.....you can rest assured that it will be the source of degrading our influence and standing amongst other people in the world by a much wider margin than we can imagine. We cannot participate in making a standard of behavior, then turn about 180 degrees at the executive level of our government and expect to command any respect for any of our positions around the world. It is two faced behavior and by doing that we join forces with the forces we once opposed in all the horrors of the holocaust as many of the things that happened there were material for the decisions of the Geneva meetings. For me, the subjects of involuntary sterilization, and torture, we helped define are all subject matter relating to the holocaust,or the Nazi experimentation,-----like it or not----it has roots there. It will remain despicable and disrespectful around the world whether a small segment somewhere disagrees or not. We must learn and me included that when one disrespects another of God's creation, we may be opening a door for someone else's behavior to also disrespect in some other way because of our provided example. I don't mislead myself about what our troops face when they go to war and I do not even dare to view myself as any way their equal in how they serve us here at home. The horrors they face are unimaginable to me and I think the least of them are better than I.

 

There are a number of situations that "I" think justify sterilisation...
Example: Convicted child rapist...men who brutaliy rape children...
They've done their time...they've met someone, we cant deny him the right to marry, or move in with the woman...And now he wants kids...And now shes pregnant. The above spokesmen would fight for this person to have children? Without sterilisation he can go anywhere in the world and...procreate.
Thats just ONE example.

 

Well, with that example, why stop at forced sterilization? Why not just cut him and take his kindney, or half his lung. Since wanting to procreate has nothing to do with the original crime you describe. Would you cut him right after the trail or after his time. I hope after his time, since after the trial that woudl be cruel and unusual punishment. And I hope to God we do not cross that line. If you want to lock him up for life, no problem, but do not cross the line of cruel and unusual punishment. And once someone has done his time, thats it. When it sucks, it sucks, but that is a discusion about our judicial system. I hope you realize that forced sterilization is for life. Plus are you assuming that the rapist child would also be a rapist, so forced sterilization is justified. So lets just start forced abortions of women who were raped. Sorry we don't agree. I am ashamed that US states had programs like that.

What about this example.
A man rapes a child at the age of 18. Spends only 10 years in prison. After then for the next 30 years he lives in 3rd world nation helping at orphanages. Devotes almost half his life to children. Then gets married, and now what. He cant have children.

Its a bad example, or fairy tail example. Point is, no one can pick and chose to sterilize others.
I would like to hear a valid example for forced sterlization, one that is not based on punishment or vengeance.

 

Mate, you warped my points a little...this has NOTHING to do with punishment or vengeance...Its about preventing the preventable. Someone has shown their cards and then its time to act. Paedophiles are rarley (never) rehabilitated...could i rehabilitate you off women? For ever? NO. Like many paedos they go overseas, where the law is lax, police not on the beat, and arent being watched. I cant see your point about taknig his kidney or lung...this is about NOT having children under ones responsibility, there is only one way to do that...he doesnt need his fertility to live or enjoy life..."wanting to procreate has nothing to do with the original crime" - (Child Rape) - i dont think even the US judicial system would accept that. Sterilisation is neither cruel or unusual...just for our (virgin minds). There are a number of ways to sterilise...some are reversable. Forced abortions have nothing to do with child abuse...and thats what we're stopping here...child abuse.
Again, this is just one example....i could bring the forum down and introduce a few others, but....i shouldnt have to.

 

You are right, lets not bring the forum down with certain examples. But I am curious, what would you be preventing?

 

Child Abuse mate. Sexual, psychological, physical.
If strerilisation is done for any other reason then its morally wrong.
However, if a woman has children, then neglects them, the state picks them up and sends them into care...The woman has more (getting a baby bonus for her drug habit each time)...she neglects the child and it goes into protective care...She then falls pregnant again, fathers not going to help, he was a trick. She neglects this child and spirals further into her drug habit...shes pregnant again...cant afford an abortion and anyway, its against her "principles"....This story continues right through-out the 1st world...When do the CHILDRENS rights enter into your thinking...?

 

Sorry buddy, but your logic and such an extreme, ones-sided example is just wrong. You are using an example with very specific circumstances. You do realize that there is no possible way to write a code of laws based on who can be sterilized and who can't, and base it on possible circumstances and what might happen. Well, many tried and usually they were dictator states, which killed in the millions.
Why did you ignore my example?

 

Mate OF COURSE they're extreme cases...the only cases where this should be considered. Prescriptive legislation DOES exist and people like me would love to spend the time writing it and getting it passed.
I didnt ignore your example...your example is indicative of paedophiles...they get caught, do their time and head overseas to a 3rd world county, either Africa or Asia. They then embroil themsleves in an activity that brings them close to children...Teacher, priest, aid worker NGO, English language teacher etc etc...VERY COMMON. There are tasks forces established to tackle just this particular sort of criminal.

You think his raping a child was an accident? A mistake? Something that could happen to anyone? If i was in jail...my longing for women wouldnt be waining mate...

 

Good discusion, but we disagree. To me its a simple case of cruel and unusual punishment. If you do ever get a chance to write punishment bills, feel free to increase the penelties for child rapists. I think 30 to life sounds about right. At least life for repeats. But just keep the surgeons out of it.