Hi. I have recently discovered 3 graves of sailors from HMS Wivern (2 in Folkestone and 1 in Dover). All 3 died in May 1940. Can anybody shed any light on what the Wivern may have been involved in during this period to suffer this loss of crew?. Thanks in advance. Steve
WW2 Naval is really not my area but I'll start the ball rolling ; hopefully someone else will have the definitive answer. The RN's two main destroyer actions in May 1940 were Narvik and support of the Army in the Low Countries, culminating in Dunkirk. Wivern was an ageing 'V & W' class destroyer and as such I believe was unlikely to have been at Narvik. I wonder if these men were the victim of Stuka or other air atatck in the North Sea/Channel ?
Searching through my resources and the web, the only things that I can find regarding the HMS Wivern are two incidents that are listed on U-boat.net 22 Feb, 1943 HMS Wivern was damaged by exploding depth charges from the sinking Canadian corvette HMCS Weburn. 14 Mar, 1945 The German submarine U-714 was sunk in the North Sea near the Firth of Forth, in position 55.57N, 01.57W, by depth charges from the South African frigate HMSAS Natal and the British destroyer HMS Wivern. (see map) Neither of these fit your criteria for May of 1940 timeframe however. As Martin said the possibilty of air attack is there. Apparently this is at least the second ship to bear the name since the only other listings for the HMS Wivern that I am finding are for a 2750 ton ironclad turret ship built in 1863 by the Laird shipyard and originally ordered by the Conferates States of America
Don´t worry Martin! You´re in good company... In Winter War France sold us nice 1870´s artillery pieces and we managed to fight back rather well... http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY2.htm
Thanks everybody. I reckon I'll go along with the air attack theory. 2 of these graves are in Shorncliffe military cemetery in Folkestone, there was a military hospital near there at that time so perhaps they were taken there with their injuries and sucumbed to wounds. [ 05. March 2006, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Steve121 ]
Steve, would suggest you do not rule out the possibility of what may be found listed as 'Battle Accidents'. This would probably have nothing to do with Blue on Blue as it was a general euphemism for fatal accidents while on active service, e.g. a straight forward road traffic accident. No.9
And, just noticed from your pic the headstones have been set touching. This indicates remains were recovered but were either indistinguishable and/or not able to be separated and have been placed in a joint grave. Hence a reasonable conclusion is that there was an explosion or they were crushed. No.9
Typical examples Fortune, are recoveries from medium or heavy bomber crash sites. They knew who was on board but the general remains cannot be identified and/or separated. Hence the memorial details are engraved on the least number of headstones as it takes to get everyone on, and the total remains are buried together. The headstones are set side by side so say three headstones could have details of five men. Recovery and burials had set procedures, however is was not an exact science and where a person was not recovered intact there is no guarantee that all remains in one grave are of the same individual. Not something that is advised officially, but something that was explained to me by men of the Graves Registration Unit who had done the job. No.9
i would say thats a pretty good idea, because we both know that in the 40s, you couldnt do anything much with dna, so you would HAVE to put remains together and then place markers repectively...
No.9, great info many thanks. How would this joint burial affect the 2 souls in the attached picture? These soldiers died on different days and yet are buried under touching stones.
I can provide a little more information on this as my uncle died on this ship at this time. Still interested?
Don't know if this thread is still going - but for information: - HMS Wivern was attacked by arircraft in the Channel on Tuesday 14th May 1940 - the following is the casualty list from the attack: ABRAMS, Frederick C, Able Seaman, P/J 110800, (DOW) AIREY, Arthur, Engine Room Artificer 5c, P/MX 61505 BACKSHALL, Frederick, Able Seaman, RNVR, P/SD/X 1328 BOYNTON, Stanley, Able Seaman, P/SSX 31567 BRIGGS, Kenneth T, Midshipman, RNR BROWN, Richard S, Py/Ty/Sub Lieutenant, RNVR CASSELL, John F, Act/Petty Officer, P/JX 136813 (DOW) DUNNE, Alfred, Able Seaman, D/SSX 122624 D 490 (Missing Presumed Dead) FINNERTY, Thomas, Act/Steward, P/LX 22692 GRAY, Joseph, Stoker 1c, RFR, P/SS 120823 B 15327 GREENWOOD, John, Ordinary Seaman, P/SSX 32192 HAMILTON, Charles, Able Seaman, P/JX 139840 HAYDEN, Frederick W, Able Seaman, P/J 22737 (Missing Presumed Dead) HERRIDGE, Thomas H, Able Seaman, P/JX 133933 HORTON, Herbert S, Stoker 1c, P/KX 84007 (DOW) MACLEAN, Murdo, Seaman, RNR, P/X 19703 A MACLEOD, Peter J, Seaman, RNR, P/X 19754 A MAYNARD, Walter, Chief Petty Officer Cook, P/M 16148 MEADEN, Frederick, Able Seaman, P/J 115219 MOORE, Francis J, Petty Officer Steward, P/L 3630 QUARRELL, Alfred F, Officer's Cook 2c, P/L 14554 SMITH, Leslie, Able Seaman, P/SSX 29930 SWEENEY, Daniel J, Stoker 2c, P/KX 104043 (Missing Presumed Dead) WOOD, Thomas R, Able Seaman, RNVR, P/SD/X 898 The following died of wounds on 15th May 1940 MANNING, Edward, Cook (S), P/MX 52387 (DOW) RALPHSON, Robert, Leading Stoker, P/KX 76360 (DOW) The following died of wounds on 16th May MACIVER, Malcolm, Seaman, RNR, P/X 19992 A (DOW) MORTIMER, Reginald J, Stoker Petty Officer, RFR, P/K 98381 (DOW) The following died of wounds on 23rd May SMITH, Alfred, Engine Room Artificer, RNR, P/X 973 ED (DOW) In Shorncliffe Cemetery there are actually three graves (RALPHSON, MORTIMER and MACIVER); MANNING is buried at Deal Cemetery
