Ike's decision to go...

Here's another "What if?" that has to do with Overlord...As you all know, because of a tie in the vote of whether to invade or not (this happened twice) due to weather conditions, Ike had to be the final word. What if Eisenhower had postponed the invasion due to foul weather conditions that were to come a few hours after the first wave of the invasion? What if he attacked during the actual bad weather? that woulda been a mess...

 

Could certainly have been a mess, but worse weather could also have increased the Allies' surprise advantage by making the defenders even less expectant of an invasion.

 

Depends how long the postponement would have been, certainly a week, more like a month. That would have given the Germans time to work on beach defences, for example the guns on Point du Hoc would have been in place. It is also possible that some of the units behind the beaches may have been moved around. Really one can't predict the results of a decision so important to the invasion with any degree of accuracy.

 

The strategic conditions were mostly against the Germans. An invasion during the last days of June - the most plausible days for good weather and low waters - wouldn't have done much of a difference. Surprise factor? There was already a surprise factor by not invading at Pas de Calais.

 

but we have to keep in mind, the germans were in danger of finding out the secret of overlord at any time.

 

I think when he decided to "go" it was very much a political decision as well, as it was very hard to think of waiting for another month for a new try: The Russians, Churchill, FDR etc etc. The pressure must have been enormous!

As well to keep the men satisfied in the southern England waiting for the invasion. I´m sure the Germans knew they were there but without reconnaissance planes they did not know a thing what was going on.

But the allied had the best chance in Hitler as he was obsessed with the Calais region. It wasn´t until mid-July that forces were released from the Calais area, I think. By then the invasion had been going on for some 5 weeks!!!

 

yeah..."no pressure" huh? that's the thing, some lost German bombers flew over British docks looking for their base, when all of a sudden they were greeted from all the anti-aircraft fire from all boats. i'm sure they were suprised, but I'm not sure if any of them survived. and yes I'm pretty sure the Germans did send some rec. planes but they got false information because of Operation fortitude. the allies went far enough as to make rubber tanks and wooden planes to fake them out. you know why they were kept there right? because they thought the invasion south of them was just a distraction from the "real" invasion in Calais area. you probably already knew that...

 

Kai is right about the political pressure. But there was also the weather. An invasion could have only succeed between June 3rd-7th or June 20th-June25th. Only two weeks in the whole year!

German reconaissence planes? I think some were allowed on purpose to fly over Pas de Calais and find out about Patton's 'I Army'. But with air superiority of 10+/1 I don't think ANY thing could have reached southern England. Maybe Martin can help us about this?

 

i bet martin could, but I'm pretty sure at least SOME information could have gotten back to Germany...or else why would they go through the trouble of making fake tanks, jets, etc.?
"bloody weather..." -Monty Python

 

I'm not 100% on this, but I'm fairly sure that at this stage of the war the 'double-cross system' of 'turning' German agents in the UK was at its' peak, with judicious amounts of false intel being reported back to Berlin.

 

I think I got a book about this...German spies in the UK and the cat and mouse game being played between them and the British secret services...

when I am home.....

 

I think I got a book about this...German spies in the UK and the cat and mouse game being played between them and the British secret services...

when I am home.....

 

Luftwaffe and Normandy

Robert "Bazzi" Weiss

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/weiss.html

On 6 June the unit was transferred to the Invasion Front. Weiss added nine victories to his tally in June. On 27 July 1944, Weiss was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 54. Under Hauptmann Weiss’ leadership, III./JG 54 was the most successful fighter unit over the Invasion Front, claiming 100 Allied aircraft shot down (100th victory by Fw. Wilhelm Müller on 15 August) . By mid-August, Weiss was credited with 118 victories. He was the fourth most successful German pilot over the Invasion Front.


-----------

Although Priller and Wodarczyk may have been the first German pilots to fly over the beachhead, they were by no means the only ones to contact the enemy on this day. Bühligen himself scored the first victory for JG 2, a P-47 over the Orne Estuary, at 1157. I/JG 2 was active over Caen from noon, and III/JG 2 joined in after it arrived at Cormeilles from Brittany. For the day, the Richthofen Geschwader claimed three P-47s, five P-51s, and nine Typhoons, for the loss of nine Fw 190s. The P-51s included an entire flight of four 4th Fighter Group aircraft, bounced while strafing a convoy near Rouen.

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/6june44.htm

 

Weiss's kills are quite open to debate as well as many of the higher ranking chaps in the III./Jg 54 such as Lang. Sad but there was such chaos that many aces lost their wingmen in the air melee's over France. Most of the Luftwaffe day fighter force was involved at some point with as much as 26 single engine gruppen flying .
Petr's listings come almost entirely from the vast listings of Tony Wood that came from the Freiburg archiv's. Again just a listing and yet I know of at least 10 nf victories that are bogus, but I am getting OT. The fact is that Fw 190A-8 equipped III./JG 54 was the most effective gruppe over Normandie with over 100 victories claimed.
III./JG 3 claimed 57 and was nearly wiped out
I./JG 27 claimed 36 and lost many.......

~E

 

ok here ya go !

K. Bühligen stab./JG 2 1 P47
M. Fiessler 10./JG 2 Typhoon
H. Hüppertz Stab III./JG 2 2 Typhoons
L. Hartmann Stab I./JG 2 1 P-47

Hptm Mihlan of Stab III. SG 4 1 P-51

Erich Hohagen StabI/JG 2 Typhoon
H. Hüppertz Stab III./JG 2 Typhoon second mission

H. Hüppertz Stab III./JG 2 P-51
F. Kunz of 2./JG 26 1 P-51
F. Beer Stab I./JG 2 1 P-51
Lt. Eichhoff Stab I./JG 2 1 P-51
H. Hüppertz Stab III./JG 2 1 P47 2 kills on third mission........
H-J. Voormann 12./JG 2 1 P-51
Uffz. Bieholawek 12./JG 2 1 P-51
F. Schüler 12./JG 2 Typhoon
Oblt. Siekmann 9./Jg 2 Typhoon
O. Müller 12./JG 2 Typhoon

10./Jg 301 pilot claimed a B-24
7 pilots of Bf 109G-6 JG 53 claimed 7 B-24's
3 pilots of JG 51 claimed 3 B-24's

Lt. Rudi Wurff of 6./JG 301 in his Bf 109G-6 claimed 1 B-24

June 7, 1944 is even more intereswting as the Luftwaffe day boyz claimed 46 Allied fighters with another 4 Allied fighters as most probable and submitted.......hmmmmmmmmm

~E

 

For 6/6/44 9 Typhoons are listed as lost and 3 of these are put down as victims of flak.
Source:
Royal Air Force Fighter Copmmand Losses Of The Second World War (Vol 3, Operational Losses: Aircraft And Crew 1944-1945 Incorporating Air Defence Great Britain And 2nd TAF)

 

Interesting !

I find it almost odd though that the claims for Typhoons actually is very close to actual numbers lost. This was usally not the case for either side in aerial claiming. The typhoons may have succumbed to flak or may not even have known what hit them. Case in point (in our book) about Pierre Clostermann with his Tempest? squadron watched as his wingman was blown out of the sky and he himself was subjected to incredible fire power and crashed landed his a/c. In his report he filed it as German flak, but in reality it was caused by two German Me 262 single seat night fighters ordered to fly day time missions. sight unseen and as these 2 German a/c flew back to base they were chased by late mark Spits......

 

In Normandy, a high number of Typhoons were lost to German tactical flak eg multiple 20mms etc.

The Typhoon could not dive to make its' ground attack, it relied instead on a relatively 'flat' angle of descent requiring a fairly long 'run-in' to the target.

And those aircraft made a big, noisy, low-level target themselves....

 

and because of it's flat angle it made a perfect target for Luftwaffe fighters. just two cents to ponder.....and yes I can believe that German Fla defences of 2cm and 3.7cm weapons could do much damage so don;t get me wrong here, but little credit is given to the Luftwaffe as they have always been termed "absent from the skies" which needs to be de-bunked

 

Interesting...

The Hawker Typhoon, or ‘Tiffy’, as it was affectionately known, was not an easy aircraft to fly. As fighter ace Desmond Scott described it: “Whereas the Spitfire always behaved like a well-mannered thoroughbred on first acquaintance, the Typhoon always reminded me of a low-bred carthorse whose pedigree had received a sharp infusion of hot-headed sprinter’s blood.”

http://www.grubstreet.co.uk/typhoon_attack.htm

And

During June, only five of 5,000 vessels operating off the coast of Normandy were sunk by enemy aircraft, the largest being a destroyer.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/canadianmilitaryhistory/99-01.asp

Doen´t mention other ways to sink ships here.