learned opinions on the Bomber Command raids 44-45

As a relative lamen when it comes to info Id like to ask other more learned peoples' opinions on the huge air raids of the latter part of the war in Germany/France by bomber command.....The reason I ask this is that I have just finished reading what I personally think is a fantastic book called "BOMBER BOYS" and has really focused my interest and passion on the subject......My own personal opinion is that the raids were justified and the famous "reap the whirlwind statement" was well stated. I also remain disgusted and ashamed of generations including my own, that it has taken until now to have a decent bomber command memorial, the likes of the other services and fighter command had 60 years ago.....Please no heated comments I have no intentions of starting anything more than a well informed (thats you chaps out there!) discussion of a subject I will be teaching my children and hopefully their children so that the sacrifices made will never be overlooked or forgotten.....

 

Of course the raids were justified...There are only a handful that are debated and they were ALL justifed, even Dresden. The memorial should go to the bomber boys, not bomber command itself, which i think was new to modern bomber warfare and made plenty of mistakes. The toll each mission took was immense...over 5000 psychological cases from bomber command alone. Thier scarifice cannot be overstated. Their contribution cannot be overstated.
I'm deliberately keeping this brief.

 

I am interested in giving respect to our airmen who flew mission after mission, replacing those lost or wounded to make a new crew, and again flew mission after mission, with each one realizing that their survival rate for the number of missions they hoped to complete was not likely to happen. Our loss rate must be compared to our supply rate of new crews and airplanes to understand that our victory was by casualty after casualty to finally defeat our enemies. That is dedication and bravery that drove each man to re-enter a plane each time to fly yet another mission. If lucky enough to survive, sadly many times it was to spend the remainder of the war as a POW in a German prison. Even in their prisons their American innovation created ways to improve their lives in survival of hunger and cold and all the dimensions of imprisonment. I hope this triggers an interest to read some books such as "P.O.W. A Kriegie's Story" or "B-17 Navigator" by Frank Farr and I hope I get a link up to a brief description of his experience. Frank Farr: 91st Bomb Group I am so honored to have this man in my neighborhood.

 

This site endeavoures to honor all service personel who served their nations honorably, reguardless of the uniform they wore. It took 40 years to create a national WWII memorial in Washington, though there were other smaller memorials throughout the US. I would say that several things may have slowed efforts to reckonise those who served in the strategic bombing campaign.

First was the that they became a victim of their own propaganda, much was made of how selective they were both in targeting and striking actual targets, when the reality of both the technology and the climate conditions made 'pinpoint' bombing more a hope than a reality. Secondly, the words of those who directed the bombing campaigns raise at least some question as to the motives in selecting targets. There was some within RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF who held the belief that the best way to prevent a 3rd war with Germany was to kill enough people and so utterly devastate the country that they would never dare rise up to plunge the continent into war ever again.

Third, very quickly the cold war forced the victorious allies to integrate West Gemany into defence of western Europe. Dwelling on the allied bombing that had such a direct effect on the German people would be an unpleasant pill to swallow for a people you were trying to find common ground with. Lastly the decendants of those airman were now flying bombers who would deliver weapons of mass destruction. People were seeing stategic bombing in a new, more fightnening light, and it was a lot simpler not to think about it.

Over time perceptions change, and it becomes harder to place yourself in the shoes of those who came before. The Strategic Bombing campaign was both an accepted tactic of both sides, and a unavoidable feature of the war.

 

War is war and you use every possible means to win it until the end of it. Then again Adolf and the boys could have surrendered way before May 1945 when everything was lost totally. And save the people from the horrors.

 

Totalitarian leaders are comfortable fighting to the last man, so long as they are not the last man.

 

Hi Steven,

Should you wish to read more on the Bomber Command raids - and beyond the 1944-1945 period by including the 1939-1943 period preceding it, there is an interesting debate of sorts in the first two sections of Sir Arthur T, Harris, Despatch on War Operations: 23rd February to 8th May, 1945. Frank Cass. London, 1995. Sebastian Cox holds to a particular view in his introduction and Horst Boog to another. See also the much cheaper and much more readily available set of essays edited by Paul Addison and Jeremy A. Craig in Firestorm: the Bombing of Dresden, 1945. Pimlico. London, 2006. These two works tend to reflect the dominant periodisations. The first commences with the appointment of Harris as Head of Bomber Command. It leaves out the September 1939 to January 1942 period. The second takes the Dresden raids of early 1945 as a representation or summation of what Bomber Command and the American Eighth Air Force were about. Neither periodisation is necessarily satisfactory. From the Allied side, the clearest - and in many ways a quite critical - account of the whole British stategic Air Offensive is covered in Sir Charles webster and Noble Frankland, The Strategic Air Offensive against Germany, 1939-1945. HMSO. London, 1961 (4 vols.).

All of these works leave out the impact or otherwise of Coastal Command, British 2nd Tactical Air Force, Air Defence Great Britain, the US 8th and 9th Air Forces and Us 15th Air Force on the outcome of the War. This is something of a pity should one hold to the view that their impact was well more than their publicity.

Michael

 

We have had similar discussions about this subject. In my opinion the conclusion has and will always be: the operations were fully justified. My deepest respect goes to the 52000+ fallen Bomber Command boys . I also have asimilar respect for any other airman from other countires, they were all young boys who risked their lives for their country.

 

Hi Skipper,

Is your comment related to the post or the thread? I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

Michael

 

Hi Michael, Neither this thread nor the post. My post was not aimed at you. I believe the Memorial is more than well deserved for the bomber lads. Unfortunately some people think this is debatable , it makes me sick , but it seems a big fashion to challenge the heroic behaviour of Bomber Command lads and I fear some will soon or late come up with the Dresden argument . Hence my statement which was made to show I strongly support these fine airmen.

 

in the heat of battle, i would fully justify the bombing as nothing more than a means to an end. but when you look back at it, some of those attacks may have been slightly overkill. but the allies did what they have to do. that being said, bomber crews shed as much blood, sweat, and tears as any other member of the armed forces (allied or axis) and they do also deserve a memorial of their own because in the end they were simply trying to bring an end to the war

 

Hitler and his Army High Command is to blame even more. They could have given up after Stalingrad or after Battle of the Bulge at the latest when the end result was clear. They chose not to and knew that the people were doomed to awful suffering.

 

I am just finishing the book Fire and Fury which discusses the strategic bombing campaign against Germany. The author focuses on Harris and his focus on area bombing of cities. The author clearly slants the book to give the reader every gruesome and horrifying view of the decimation of the German cities and the many deaths of the civilian population. The reader is not surprised by his conclusion that area bombing of cities was a worthy experiment (whether it could bring the end of the war on its own) but that it should have ended with the destruction of Hamburg. I did not agree as I feel the civilian population is part of a system of support of the war effort. Agriculture, factory workers, transportation workers, etc. all support the war effort and their elimination hinders the war effort. It would seem that many, including his boss, felt Harris should not have focused so much on cities but I get the impression that some (Churchill) would support it and denounce it, depending on which worked best for the war and their careers (or place in history.) The author quotes Roosevelt as wanting to take the war to the German people and pay them back for bombing London, Rotterdam, etc. Oddly he never makes any reference to any other quote by Roosevelt along these lines.

The author points out that Harris never received anything in the way of the military honors or accolades that so many others received. He left the service, moved to South Africa and worked there until his retirement. I think Harris was given a dirty job which he did a little too well. He could have bombed more industrial targets than cities and he certainly could have been directly ordered to do so; apparently no one wanted to do that.

Interesting if what Speer reported to the Allies after the war is true that the British contribution to strategic bombing was less effective than the American bombing. In addition a focus on one industry by all the resources of the RAF and USAF would have brought Grmany to her knees much earlier than 1945.

 

Good post - I'm gladdened also that you do not derive your information and knowledge from one source (always going to end in tears..) Good, honest and informed.

 

Thanx for your posting. Do you mean more or less effective?

On this part I recall Speer saying when the Hamburg bombing had taken place that "..one more of these and the war is over for us!"

 

On ww2f's "sister site" we have discussed this matter many a time.

I usually stay out of the discussion, simply because I feel that if we talk for the next fifty years opinions are by now so hardened that all sides tend to merely repeat themselves and are not prepared to re-consider the matter.

Having said that, I feel honour bound to repeat what I had to say on ww2talk the last time round:


Let me start by telling you where, in modern parlance, I come from.

I am a British Ex-Serviceman, Jewish by faith, who's lengthy family tree has numerous sections marked simply "Perished in the Holocaust".

I was one of five brothers who all served their country in HM Forces, one of whom was killed in the skies over Nuremberg whilst serving in Bomber Command.

I won't bore you with my own personal military record but I think it right to mention at this point that I was in London when the Blitz started and watched as bombs fell on "innocent women and children"

As others have pointed out Dreden is not a new topic on this forum.


I would ask you to go to this link and scroll down to posting No 38 where I first posted the item below:
World War 2 Talk - Powered by vBulletin <http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/24754-dresden-casualties-report-published.html>


Dresden ?

We have all been here before and in general, views are so entrenched on the rights and wrongs of bombing the city that I fear whatever is said today will do nothing to alter fixed viewpoints.

I would offer just one new item for you to consider.

My dear late brother Jack who was killed in the skies over Nuremberg on the 16th March '45 had as a crew-mate a lovely man by the name of Ted Hull.

In 1997, when I was belatedly researching Jack's death, I was in constant communication with Ted who had been the Flight Engineer on Jack's Lancaster.

Ted let me have a copy of his Log Book which, he assured me, would have been identical to Jack's log, regrettably no longer available.

Note the 5th op in which the crew took part. The date was the 13th of February, it was just another raid on just another German City and one from which they were lucky to return.

On the 16th of March, just over a month later, their luck finally ran out.
BBC - WW2 People's War - The night my father was killed in action
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/90/a8452190.shtml>

Ron

 

Thank you. Speer said the Brits were less effective.

 

That's a fine post Ron.

 

I think Ron said it all.