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Operation Bagration Discussion

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe February 1943 to End of War' started by O.M.A., Jul 17, 2013.

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  1. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Indeed. I have never thought about this that way but behind the Overlord there was a huge scale deception campaign including Pattons' Ghost Army and all that rubber tanks etc and everything was happening in highly populated area. Indeed, an impressive achievement. Abwehr was indeed a lousy intelligence - they just supported their bosses' wishful thinking.
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    No : the Pz divisions were almost immediately released : 2 pz was going to Normandy and left the Pas de Calais, 9 and 10 SS were arriving from the east and 2 SS was arriving from the south of France .

    Hitler told the Japanese ambassador that the landing would happen in Normandy or Britanny .

    But that was not the reason why the Pz were going to Normandy : as with Bagration, Germany was not in the position to distribute its forces following what it presumed the Allies would do : this was a luxury Germany did not have .Germany reacted on what its opponents did . There was a landing in Normandy and everything that was available was going to Normandy;there was in may 1944 a big Soviet offensive against AGNU and everything that was available was sent to AGNU .

    The fire brigade was going where was the fire, not where there could be a fire .
     
  3. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    German ob in June.2,21,116 pz div. 12ss, 21 pz div and pz lehr. so a total of 6 PZ div
     
  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    No : there were more than 6 PzD (1 SS, 9,10 ) but only 5 were operational :

    2SS :partly and far away from Toulouse

    PzL : south of Normandy

    12 SS

    21


    2 : north of the Seine
     
  5. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, it is considerably more complicated a situation than the conventional historical narrative would have us believe. You are partly correct, over half (57%) of the effective Panzer divisions were almost immediately released and to a large extent it was a product of their readiness, but also of the organizational scheme, which was complicated to say the least.

    Heeresgruppe B had under command XXXXVII Panzerkorps, with 2., 21. and 116. Panzer Division. 2. Panzer was operationally subordinated to 15. Armee for commitment in the army zone - on release from reserve by HG B. 21. Panzer was the same for 7. Armee, and 116. Panzer was the operational reserve for HG B...except it was still organizing, equipping, and training, so was only provisionally ready for commitment. Allied deception led to the decision to use 116. Panzer to replace 2. Panzer in the 15. Armee zone when the decision was made on 9 June to commit 2. Panzer in the 7. Armee zone for the proposed Panzergruppe West counterattack. So in the end, 116. Panzer was not committed to Normandy until 19 July.

    Under direct control of OKW was Panzergruppe West, which was the reserve for Ob.West as a whole, as well as the administrative command for Panzer training and organizing in Ob. West. It consisted of I. SS-Panzerkorps and LVIII (Reserve) Panzerkorps. Headquarters I. SS-Panzerkorps and two of its divisions, Lehr and 12. SS, were ordered to Normandy on 6 June when it was released from reserve on orders of OKW. 1. SS-Panzer was ordered to join it on 8 June, but the order was cancelled on 9 June and so it was not until 17 June it began actually moving. Worries about a follow-up invasion in the Pas de Calais and the still weak condition of the division factored into the decision. The last division, 17. SS-Panzergrenadier, was only under the administrative control of I. SS-Panzerkorps. It had been operationally subordinated in the event of invasion of LXXX Armeekorps of 1. Armee, but on 6 June was ordered to Normandy.

    Armeegruppe G similarly had LVIII (Reserve) Panzerkorps operationally subordinated to it in the event of invasion. However, its units were mostly not operational. 2. SS-Panzer was very weak and was not ordered to Normandy until 12 June, partly because after 17. SS-Panzergrenadier went to Normandy it was the only mobile reserve of any effectiveness for both 1. and 19. Armee, but that was at best a minor consideration. 9. Panzer was still refitting and was not considered operationally ready until mid July. 11. Panzer was only just arriving for refitting when the invasion occurred and was still not operationally ready when the allies invaded Southern France in August, even though it had completely absorbed the personnel and equipment (such as it was) of 273. Reserve-Panzer.

    So in terms of the effect of the Allied deception plan, it can be said it played a part in delaying the movements of 2. Panzer, 116. Panzer, and 1. SS-Panzer, but for the latter two their lack of operational readiness was probably as strong a factor. Otherwise, 21. Panzer, 12. SS-Panzer, Lehr, and 17. SS-Panzergrenadier were all committed on 6 June to the invasion front. The rest simply weren't seriously part of the picture on 6 June.
     
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  6. albanaich

    albanaich New Member

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    At this point in the war Germany was doomed. It was more or less a case of the collapse would occur at whatever part of the line the Germans weakened to strengthen other parts.
     
  7. Jesica

    Jesica New Member

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    Theoretically Heer still had the strength to overcome a soviet offensive if acting accordingly. But Luftwaffe's situation was very different. 'Defense of the Reich' failure in 1944 and the huge strain suffered along four long years, plus the over-extension of Gruppens left Heer with limited or null air cover in the east. Lack of reconnaissance and inability to intercept soviet tactical bombers doomed Heer's battle formations standing their ground.

    I recall reading in Ziemke's books that Manstein told Hitler a week before being sacked, that the Soviet Army could rip open any sector of his front. That they needed to create a reserve to act as 'Fire Brigades'. So it pretty much shows that Heer situation in Bagration in 1944 does not differ much from the situation after Kursk. On the contrary, Luftwaffe strength declined decisively.
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Air superiority was never in doubt during operation Bagration: The Luftwaffe had only 40 fighters at the beginning of the campaign. One of the stars of the Red Air Force in 1944 was the Lavochkin La-5N, arguably the finest Soviet fighter until the arrival of the uprated Lavochkin La-7.

    From Bagration by Steven J Zaloga
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In less than a week of fighting, the 1st Byelorussian front had captured or destroyed 366 armoured vehicles and 2,664 artillery pieces, killed 50,000 German troops and captured a further 20,000. ( Notice the relationship ). 2:1 being killed?!

    Bagration 1944 by Zaloga
     
  10. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    The West is more interrested in the first part of the war among Germany and Russia. Victories, ruthless beatings of the Russians attract attention of the West. Chronologically, the last battle of interest for the Westerners is the battle of Kursk - The last missed opportunity. Do not missunderstand me, I am a Westerner too, European but all I want is the Truth, not Propaganda. It is difficult to investigate Bagration because sources in German or English language are so scarse.
    Why such a lack of interest?
    1. Because it is unpleasant to watch the "Enemy at the East" winning in such a great style
    2. Compared to Bagration, Overlord seems, should I say, another lower league duel of the future allies.
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Lack of interest?
    Invasion of Italy, Overlord, kicking the Germans out of Africa? Bombing German cities and factories to kingdom come?
    Well, so be it.
    And Eisenhower continued the broad front attack as he saw the Red Army attacking that way superior.
     
  12. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Ah, I see: I wasn't clear enough. I was talking about the lack of the interest of the after-war historians for the subjects where the Germans were at the receiving end and were beaten dearly. I was trying over the past weeks to find a quality book about the Operation Bagration. Nothing serious. On the other hand, there is plenty of books dealing with just segments of the entire Operation Citadelle. Just Prokhorowka - the last Nazi straw. These sources are literally lamenting about the last lost chance to win at the east.
    On the other hand the entire Operation Bagration was omitted and authors rather concentrato to the events after the operation was concluded. Then they lament about threcherous Russians who have abandoned Peoles in the Warsaw uprising.
    That is what I wanted to say: show-and-hide game. If the west wants distorted view on the past, then they have the right to have it and lament endlessly: but how that happened that the Russians have won. As Ms. Clinton lammented: What Happened? Donald has beaten her dearly, that's what happened. The truth is truth howewer itcan be uggly for the observer. Objectivity, not lies, not Propaganda.
     

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