The Black Prince

Caught a piece on TV last night about the development of the infantry tanks leading up to the Churchill. Must admit I find a lot of TV stuff to be very lightweight (if not actively wrong) but that one was reasonably interesting. Didn't realise that a small number of Churchill served in Korea.

As they put it the Churchills biggest flaw was that it was a lot of tank and very little gun. It's hill climbing abilities however were what kept it in service.

Pity the 17pdr version, Black Prince, never really saw the light of day.

 

Black Prince

I have worked on the Black Prince and fired the Black Prince.
Somewhere in this Forum you should find trials reports.

 

Black Prince

Trials Report is posted, Tanks of WW2, 'A not too silly 'what if',June 16th.2006.

 

The Black Prince project wasn't cancelled in favor of Centurion as the latter was more simplified and with the same overall performance?

And the Churchills in Korea proved not to be very effective as they hindered by the extreme temperatures and the lay of the land. Let alone they were already outclassed before the end ww2...

 

Prince

McR, can not understand your first line re Prince/Cent.
The Black Prince was not in the same league as the Cent, if you read some of my posts you will find that I worked on both.
The Prince was probably the last of our WW2 series while the Cent was the first of a new era, and it proved itself !

 

Black Prince would have been very useful for the British if it been in service in 43 or 44. It would have offered the British a tank that could go toe to toe with the German heavies. Down side would be the early poor HE round for the 17pdr which would have limited the infantry support side.


(should have named this topic Black Prince)

 

And now it is!

The Black Prince is one of my favourite tanks of the war, even if it never saw service; like Ebar said, it would have fixed the only serious flaw (other than speed) of the Churchill and made it a match for any other heavy tank in service at the time. One of the best tanks of the war.

 

BP.

To save you looking it up, here is trials report, make your own minds up.
Also photo of 'Old Friend' at Bovvy.

 

Interesting. They'd obviously wised onto the advantages of sloped armour so I wonder why it took so long to appear of British tanks?

Oh what about the material covering the gun mantel? Was that some kind of waterproofing?

 

I meant that by the time the British decided to start the production of the Centurion there was no need to further improve the Churchill.

 

Prince

I had never noticed the mantlet cover. Not on the one I worked on, more like sand protection than waterproof.

 

I wonder what the inter-ally position would have been if the British managed to get Black Prince into service by D-Day but the Americans had still been plodding along with Sherman. I wonder if it would have caused tension if the British had something that could trade punches with the German heavies and the American didn't.

Any thoughts?

 

Well, for a start the Brits would still be quite reliant on the Sherman - even if we switched all our tank production to the Black Prince we'd still have more M4's in service (I think that is right).

However, having a useful heavy would have been good - the problem is how to use it. If you distribute them to companies as happened with Fireflies & Challengers then you get a tank that can't keep up with the advance. Best use would be as a 'heavy brigade' - like the Tiger I was used by the Germans.

Overall, us Brits would be a wee bit smug and condecending, which would have increased since the war...

 

The Americans developed the M26 Pershing without cooperation of the British. Why would they object if the British explored heavy-tanks based on the Churchill, utilizing the 17-lb main-gun?
I guess I don't follow this line of logic... though I do agree with Ricky's comments concerning the heavys not being able to keep-up with all those "plodding Shermans."
Give me the Sherman "Easy-8" and I'll be happy to plod along with most anyone...

As an aside, I'm quite surprised at the naming of the "Black Prince." The Brits being one of the "good-guys" I would have expected it to have been tagged the "White Knight." I do think it an impressive-looking machine. And our own Merlin actually has hands-on experience with it! Quite impressive.

Tim

 

BP

If I had a choice between the Black Prince and the Comet, having tried both, the Comet would win hands down!

 

Thats because you dont know your English history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_the_Black_Prince

There have also been several warships with that name, including an armoured cruiser lost with all hands at Jutland

 

Black Prince was the nickname for Prince Edward of Woodstock, son of King Edward III. He died before he could accend to the English throne but before he expired racked up an impressive military carrear during the 100 years was. So naming a tank after him isn't so silly. The real question is why did we name one of our armoured cars Saladin?

 

Because 'Richard the Lionheart' is too long

 

Saladin may have fought the Brits in the Crusades, but at least some westerners thought he was arlight - chivalrous and honorable... That and there has always been a romanticism associated with Arabia and the middle east - why do you think we pay so much attention to her today? Equally frightening political machinations are going on in Africa, but we've always chosen the middle east to intervene in because we're just more interested

 

The Americans did have plenty of weapons capable of dealing with the Tiger, especially in the close terrain immediately behind the landing beaches of Operation Overlord. A heavy tank batallion in British service would only really have been capable of making a difference in the fighting in France by the time Allied Shermans, air power and artillery had already won the battle of attrition in the Bocage.