THe P-38 Lightning

[Split from 'If you were a WW2 soldier']

p38 is a mutt..its fast but not faster than a fw190..and like all twins its roll rate suks...in real life most soldiers almost never actually see enemy infantry,mostly you shoot at a tree line or distant buildings...sometimes muzzle flashes can be seen...not much like in the movies

 

Still....4 .50 cals and a 20mm in the nose...pretty heavy firepower there. When I fly sims, I prefer to have a more stable platform to strafe from anyways so the P-38 suits my flying style and it's slow enought I can acctually see what the hell i'm doing (unlike the only other twin fighter i've 'flown' the 262)

 

aircobras in sw pacific had 4 .50s and a 37mm cannon...unfortuneatly zeke pilots were not inclined to let any aircobra pilots get anywhere behind them...cobra pilots were unable to stop zeke pilots from getting on THEIR tails however...two 20mm and two .30.....many late war fighters (fw190) had four 20mm.....and were faster and much more nimble than a p38...

 

majorwoody:
The P-38L was the definitive version of the Lightning. It could hold it's own against any piston-engined plane in either the Japanese or German inventories. The P-38J was also a very capable aircraft... it was the earlier versions that tended to garner bad-press due to failing engines and the compressiblity issues in a dive.
The P-38 was a wonderfully stable gun platform and one of the finest PR--photo-recon aircraft of the war. With armament removed, the PR version of the P-38 was very fastand rarely intercepted.
In the pacific campaign, they couldn't get their hands on enough P-38s. It had a tougher time in the European theatre due to issues like fuel and the cockpit heaters. Later versions provided more comfort for pilots. And HEAT.
A mutt?
I think not.
Once the issues of compressibilty were dealt with, and dive-flaps were incorporated, all German advantages in a dive were taken away.
Sorry, but I do not agree with your assessment of the P-38. I'll take a P-38J or L version over any Fw190.

Tim

 

majorwoody:
This quote concerning the P-38L comes from the book
Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 by Martin Caidin.

"Let me repeat this again and again. It can never be emphasized too strongly. It makes up the gospel word. The P-38L. Now THERE was an airplane.
Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a german fighter straight down, following a spin or a split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better.
It was easily among the greatest fighting machines ever made."

I rest my case.
Tim

 

From what i hear the P-38 was a laughing stock for the Germans... One FW 190 pilot said it was like dogfighting with a bomber . This was not because it wasnt a good plane, but because it was improperly used during WW2 as a dogfighter, and not, as it should have been, by diving and strafing. Its like a long range interceptor, fast, sturdy with alot of firepower, but no manoeuvrability whatsoever... The P-38 shot down 1771 planes during ww2, Adolf Galland himself once almost made that number 1772 in a scuff with a lightning... Not bad, but in a dogfight I'd rather be in an FW 190 or a P-51

 

in fogoten battles ,il2 flght sim..the p38 l was recently added as a patch..it is very sturdie and very fast...alas ,it has the same crappy roll rate of earlier 38s...(or any other twin engine fighter.110 ,mossie ,beaufighter,)...by 1944 axis powers had planes that had more firepwer and were as fast as any model p38..easy enuff to outrun a zeke or oscar in 1943...not so a george or 190 in 1944

 

Sorry boys.
I ain't "buying" what you're "selling" concerning the Lockheed P-38L Lightning.

Smeg:
If the P-38 was considered a "laughing-stock" by the Germans... I wonder why they referred to it as the "Fork-Tailed Devil?"
Please feel free to share your sources with us.

'Woody:
Better read Martin Caidins' quote once again. The P-38L could "out-roll" any Fw190.

Tim

 

Thats absolutely ridiculous... The only person stating the P-38 can outroll any German fighter happens to be Martin Caidin, author of the definitive P-38 fan-club-book...

Every source I have ever read has told me that the P-38 lighting had a mediocre turn rate... and one P-38 fan named Martin Caidin isn't going to change that.

It was a great fighter, but it had its problems; and a turn rate was one of them The P-38 was more a boom'n'zoom plane, not a dogfighter. Here's some sources, since ya asked
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html
http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
http://world.std.com/~ted7/stunisie.htm

 

Uh, smeghead...

in the very first of those sources it puts the poor early record of the P-38 in Europe down to a mixture of faulty tactics (being tied to close escort for the bombers) lack of training (woeful, one guy called it)

It does mention that the versions D-H were not great performers against single-seat figthers... and then it has this, about the P-38L:

Followed by:

And a lot more.

I think that this source is one that Hoosier would be using to support his argument!

Edit: the second link says much the same... and the third link, dealing with early-model P-38s, states:

 

(sigh)
FW 190 had a roll rate of 151 degrees per second at 87 knots
P-38L had a roll rate of 78 degrees per second at 87 knots
151 is a bigger number than 78

However, the P-38L did increase roll rate as speed increased... It could also go faster than the FW-190. The FW-190 had a better turning radius and better roll rate a lower speeds. The P-38L had a better roll rate at high speeds because the FW-190 could not reach the whopping 579 kph that the P-38L could... so at such speeds, yes, the P-38 had the best roll rate... but in a dogfight with a Focke Wulf, the FW will have a superior roll rate because the P-38L will need to slow down...
like i said, a boom'n'zoom plane

 

Ah, that's better!

(a source for your figures?)


A P-38 could still out-dogfight an Fw-190 by simply not slowing down, not unlike the tactics used to counter the Zero. It does then become a fine line between 'boom & zoom' and 'dogfighting', so I'll bow out of that little debate.

 

Because they didn't?! They spoke german and so it was Gabelschwanzteufel...
Why: because it's twin tail boom configuration resembled the tail of that devil!

 

a link:
http://marinergraphics.com:16080/ww2/
Dunno if it will help anybody here

Edit: another
http://www.chuckhawks.com/lightning_P38.htm

 

Smeg:
Yawn. If the above references are not enough to enlighten you of the prowess of the P-38L... I'll not waste anymore time with this. Believe what you will, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. Both the P-38 and Fw190 were among the great fighters of WW2.
A large percentage of the text concerning the P-38 in Martin Caidins' book was supplied by P-38 drivers, and not simply Martin Caidin. The P-38L that was flying at the end of the Second World War was a much different beast than the P-38F that began the war.
You're the one that mistakenly labeled the P-38 a "Mutt" (to quote you)... and, based on that and other comments, I think most readers of this forum can easily formulate their own opinion about your knowledge of WW2 aircraft.

Ome:
Thanks for adding the German-text. I had it in my mind, but my German spelling would have been atrocious... so I passed on the attempt. hehe.

Tim

 

hoosier...i think it was me who called it a mutt...im not a warbird pilot but i did own a cherokee for years..my opinion on 38 is based on flight models in three different war sims...janes ww2,cfs2,il2 forgotten battles....not just the lightning..all twin engine fighters suck in a dogfight. 38 pilots in the pacific just need to keep on lottsa speed to be safe from zekes .i notice in the eto we dont see any high scoring 38 aces...cause german planes are too fast,and a 38 pilot in a dogfight is in big trouble...we have the l model in il2 now ...it is really fast..but not faster enough to make up for its sluggish roll (flaps or not)is the flight model wrong,i dont know ,guys argue endlessly about every planes fm one thing i do know ...if its got 2 engines try to stay well away from enemy fighters....btw..there are guys who fly only lightnings or jugs but they do it to show that they are so good they can still fight well with a big handicap...showoffs...if theres a way to make a 38l roll with a spit or 09 ...pls tell me..ill try it in sim

 

Trouble is, a flight sim is not real life...

 

Sorry Hooiser... Normally I wouldn't argue something to the death, but i'm just an FW-190 man.

 

smeg:
I do respect your passion... but I hope you are not formulating your opinions of an aircraft based solely on a computer-simulation game.

Call me old school, but I love reading the TEXT from the people who actually flew these marvelous 'birds' during the war. The stories of air-combat, and insights into the aircraft by these pilots are just incredible.
I too am a fan of the Fw190 "Butcher-bird"... as well as the Fw Ta-152, the P-47 Thunderbolt... and on and on.

The thing that most impresses me about the Lockheed P-38 is the fascinating story of it's design and development into a world-class pursuit/interceptor. Lockheed's Kelly Johnson had the ability to think outside the box, and the result was an aircraft that looked like no-other, and was able to adapt to a wide variety of roles and excell at most.

See you on the boards Smeg.
(Big Smile)

Tim

 

No no, ya've got it all wrong, Majorwoody's the one with the computer flight sim My roll-rate figures came from Flight magazine, Though IL-2 is a pretty cool game (pity its so damn HARD!)

If i formulated my opinions from computer games I'd probably be telling you the X-wing could kick a P-38 any day

...and it could