What if the Soviets Never found out at Kursk?

What if the Soviet intelligence had never uncovered the plans of Operation Citadel? Would the operation been a success? Could the Soviets have counterattacked?

My opinion is, if the Soviets hadn't found out about the Operation, it would have been disastrous for them. The salient probably would have been eliminated without the strenghtened anti-tank defenses and reinforced positions. However, in the long run, the success wouldn't have mattered, because of the Soviet offensives to the north at Oral and Bryansk.

What do you think would have happened?

 

If you consider the situation how many men and tanks and planes were in the "neighbourhood", it would probably be the worst move to attack first, because the counterattack could destroy the main forces for both sides. The Red Army had a lot more reserves, so even if they had attacked first they still had troops and tanks to follow or counter any kind of military situation I think, but they could not have kept on attacking the whole autumn like they did in the real life after Kursk if they had made the first "chess move" in July 1943.

The best example of German counter attack genius must be Kharkov may 1942.

 

Well for a start three and a possible fourth Soviet Front would be destroyed an estimated 2.5 million Soviets become POW's 12,500 artillery pieces are lost as well as something like 12,500 armoured vehicles. Meaning that German lines are shortened and can be well defended, there is no time to rebuild the Soviet loss of three and a possible fourth Soviet Front for the following years offensive to destroy Army Group Centre which remains intact and that Germany could then most likely launch mini offensives against the Soviets.

Some other senario's i have read that if the Germans had won Kursk that with the capture of all those armoured vehicle mainly tank that Hitler could ba able to fully kit out the Panzer Divions thus bringing them up to full TO & E and could even fit out new Panzer Divisions and send them south to Italy which could tip the balance against the Allies in the Italian Invasion.

v.R

 

It was basic military tactics. If you are an officer on the German General staff in 1943, you know you cannot allow a bulge in your lines the size of the one at Kursk, both the Russians and Germans realized this. The Germans wanted to surround and cut off the Kursk salient while all the while the Russians were busy making it bigger and building more defenses like mine fields and anti tank ditches.

The Kursk salient poked into the German lines to the west and it had to be eliminated because the Russians could launch flanking attacks from it or break out in any direction they chose with their rear and lines of communication (supply) intact. Its existence threatened the whole German front line on the eastern front and the Russians knew the Germans would be forced to launch a major offensive to pinch it off. Hitler thought it could be done but he had major doubts, he told one General "whenever i think of this offensive my stomach turns over."

The Germans could have found alternative ways around attacking Kursk, several Generals thought they were going to have another Stalingrad on their hands and approached Hitler with alternate plans involving attacks elsewhere in the east. But for political reasons and German public opinion, Hitler needed a big victory in the East in 1943 and so he ordered the attack (against even his own better judgment). The attack of course failed and achieved nothing except using up all the German armored reserves on the Eastern front.

 

The Germans would have suceeded in pinching off the bulge known as Kursk but I don't think the offensive would have been sustainable. Had the Russians would have built up their army in another location and launched what probably would have been their first successful summer campaign against the Germans because... the Germans had thrown everything into the Citadel campaign.

The only thing German would have gained at Kursk was a balancing of the front line. Nothing of strategic value that would have shortened the war or brought the Russians to the surrender table would have been achieved by a German vistory at Kursk.

And I think the military leaders of Germany, along with Hitler knew that.

 

The Germans would have suceeded in pinching off the bulge known as Kursk but I don't think the offensive would have been sustainable. Had the Russians would have built up their army in another location and launched what probably would have been their first successful summer campaign against the Germans because... the Germans had thrown everything into the Citadel campaign.

The only thing German would have gained at Kursk was a balancing of the front line. Nothing of strategic value that would have shortened the war or brought the Russians to the surrender table would have been achieved by a German vistory at Kursk.

And I think the military leaders of Germany, along with Hitler knew that.

 

It wouldn't have mattered... the resources the Russia had built up over the winter would have been used against the Germans in another part of the front.