9-11

It's actually a part of a very thought through counter-terrorist tactic. It's related to local culture and the Arab sense of honor as the loss of your home is direct blow to your family, your honor and standing in society.
Regarding the airstrikes. They are, AFAIK, guided missile strikes at selected targets. Modern munitions, however, are quite powerfull so the effect is sometimes a bit excessive, so to say!
The Israelis do not kill, quote, dozens or hundreds of palestinians, unquote. One can argue that they do things wrong, yes, but to say that they use terror is to stray from the truth.

A very good post indeed, Ebar! The British post-war CT-campaigns are very good examples of this!

Best regards!

- Mr.B.

 

No way CC! I wouldn't miss all this for the world! It's like having been able to live inside the Third Reich! I don't have to read it in a book, I see it everyday.

Oh, and GP - Yes, we should "nuke em til they glow"!

I just love playing devil's advocate!

 

I agree with the hearts and minds process but the Israelis are not winning the hearts and minds, as for America they are trying to win hearts and minds in Iraq and Aghanistan but I believe they are alsolosing some through needless force.

 

Israel did initially go for 'hearts & minds' - their state is based on the idea that Arab & Jew should live together as equals, in every sense. Israeli Arabs had much more freedoms than in Arab nations (no id cards, for example).
However, the succession of wars, the increasing anti-Jew hate campaign, all has squished this flat.

Is there any chance of a hearts & minds campaign here now?

 

Pehaps you are correct Ricky but in my experience, I tend to side with the Muslims over the Jews. I have visited the Middle East and can only judge by what I have seen. All I have seen is the Jews adding to and making the situation worse, much like the USA in Iraq.

My experience with the Muslims is that they are honorable, caring, and quite reasonable. Many westerners seem to judge all Muslims by the acts of a relatively few number of extremists, and I find that a shame.

:smok:

 

I won't say the Jews are doing the right thing over there, and I used to side with the Arabs in this conflict. But I recently found out that official government newspapers in the Arab world deliberately spread antisemitic myths and rumours as if they were the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Now that is bad, in my book.

 

Greg, in my town, 1/4 (ish) people are Muslim.
In my area of town, 1/20 are not. Same for my school.

Yes, many are honourable, reasonable, etc. (caring is a tricky one...)
Sadly many more are arrogant arses. (not that much different from most cultures then!!)

This may well be exaggerated by little social/religious differences:
For example, the Koran states that all non-Muslims, being Infidel, are under death-sentance anyway, but if you want to tolerate them, that is your perogative.
(The Bible originally tells Jews that gentiles are there to be put up with, but not really included - you can fleece them in business terms! There is then the New Covanent, in which all 'Gentiles' are potential beleivers. Go out and evangelise. Include them. Be nice. Hindus (another sizeable minority here) are very respectful of others. Most Lutonians can tell a Hindu from a Muslim within about 30 seconds just by how he acts.
I really am rambling, and am in danger of looking stridently anti-Muslim.
I'm not really, but 24 years of living cheek by jowl has shown me quite why so many young Muslim men (the worst 'offenders', as in most cultures) turn so readily to violence/hatred/etc. They have a culture of strength, where you must be seen to be lording it over everybody. To benefit this, they rarely travel in groups of less than 3!
This kind of 'culture of strength' an be readily seen in the Middle East. If the Arab nations really united, Israel is dead. But all of them want to be the important one. So they never do. Yes, this is common everywhere, but the West has calmed down a little since the 13th Century.

Sorry, another 'Ricky Ramble'...

 

I don't mind a Ricky Ramble if it has a point. This post once again proves to me that there is nothing wrong with Muslem culture, but just that they live in what we call the 13th century. After all it is the 13th century of Islam. We cannot speed up their development, as is seen in Afghanistan where all 'modern' regulations are gradually being turned back. Fact is, after the 13th century in Europe ther began a period of increasing secularisation and return to rationality over belief; I think we'll be seeing this same process in the Islamic world in our time, and then there will be nothing to fear from them anymore.

Look at all the renewed fundamentalism and extremism; it seems clearly a last jolt of the religious Muslem world to try to stop secularisation.

 

There is nothing wrong with religious fundamentalism, Roel, save where it is twisted and perverted into extremism. As for secularisation being a good thing, I would say that is true only up to a certain point; beyond that point, age-old morals and values are cast aside for whatever system happens to be fashionable, which can lead to long term disaster for any civilization.

 

Ricky, can you tell me where in the Koran it states that all non-Muslims are damned? That will save me looking all through my copy for the quote.

Thanks!

:smok:

 

I'll have a look for you

This fact came up in a 'comparing religions' conversation with a Muslim guy at work. He is on the local 'council of faiths' so I assumed he knew what he was talking about!

Also what came up was the difference:

Christian: 'God created us, he is our father, therefore he loves us'
Muslim (after a puzzled look): 'God created us, he is our father, therefore we owe him a huge debt and must be obediant'

 

I think the Muslim faith is just a bit more truthful there...

By the way, talk about straying from the topic!

 

Yeah, I think that is partially my fault.

Oh, by the way...

Oddly, when 'the West' were in their 13th Century, the Islamic world was a place of far greater culture, learning, etc etc. This is actually more true of the 11th Century...
But while the West has 'progressed' (for all our failings, I really am glad that I live when I do) the 'East' (please forgive me for such horrendously vague terms) has not really done so. In some ways it has, but in others it has regressed from a society of enlightenment...

 

I will await the passage. I don't think its in there and I believe we will find that your acquaintance is reading things into the text that are not there.

:smok:

 

Ths is one of the widespread curses of Islam: interpretation instead of literal reading from the Koran. This is what leads to Imams calling homosexuality a 'spreading disease that has to be eradicated', and things like that, like they did in Holland.

 

I don't think we need limit that to Muslims!

You have obviously never met a "Southern Babtist"!

:smok:

 

Agreed, that is one of the curses of all religions. Ever heard of Crusades, of the Inquisition, etc etc?

It may well be that this viewpoint is one that has been worked out by theologians 'reading between the lines' rather than actually being a chunk of text in the Koran. I would be happy to be proved wrong on that!

Roel -

Do your parents love you, or are they just authoritarian figures who expect/demand utter obediance?

 

Greg, I happen to be a Southern Baptist. And none of us that I'm aware of want homosexuals eradicated (mass murder is definitely NOT a Christian act!). It is a sin, yes, and as such should be avoided and definitely not celebrated as a good thing. But to seek their deaths? No, any true Christian (Baptist or otherwise) would oppose such a course.

 

CC,

Never said you did! My use of the phrase "Southern Babtist" was used simply as a metaphor as Southern Babtists do, in my opinion, have a tendency to read things into text that simply is not there, as do many others. This is just based on having attended a number of Babtist churches and speaking with the congregation.

That was my only point; please do not take it personally.

 

What's the relevance of this?

No, my parents activaley oppose every form of militarism, even to an extent which gets on my nerves sometimes. They've simply raised me to respect their authority as a fact so they don't really have to enforce it.

Why Why Why?