A new openness to discussing Allied war crimes in WWII: "We didn't take prisoners"

I will give you an other example for unreasonable killing, warcrime on the allies-side in april 1945: soldiers of the 18th US-infantry regiment killed 9 Hitler-Youth kids in a small village call Treseburg/Harz mountains. Most of the kids were in the age of 15 years. They wore short trousers and they didn´t wear any kind of weapons when they reached Treseburg and the US lines. The probably reason why they were been killed was that nearly 60 US soldiers been killed in action a few days before by an combat against regular troops near Hasselfelde (only 6 miles from Treseburg). So it was probably a kind of personal revenge. I naturally know that there were Hitler Youth kids fighting against the allies troops called as "Werwolves" and maybe the soldiers of the 18th infantry regiment thought that these kids could be "Werwolves" too-although they were not. But it really made no sence to kill these youngs by neck shot,right?

 

Decission of first line troops, privates? Not appear to have higher orders of murdering the local population. This despite the fact that the law of retaliation was still in force at the time:
AFIK: Erich Priebke was convicted for killing a surplus of 5 civilians in the Ardeatine massacre... not for the other 330 victims... and so on.

 

Do you have any documentation on this? Without context even if it did happen it's hard to say much about it. Furthermore many accounts I've seen of such activities don't hold up well when researched.

 

I know and you are right. I read several books about allies war crimes and sometimes it´s hard to judge about and if all the things hold up well when researched the context. On saturday we already had an article about this "story" in our regional newspapers. If you like I will try to post it. But one of person who researched about what happened in 1945 will do a closer report of it by also using NARA documents. If I will get the report I will send it or post it here.
It is however not my intention to point with the finger to crimes of the Allies as a kind of justification for the terrible things which were caused by German troops or special units during the war. I only would like to show that there were examples of war-crimes on each side ... sometimes these things happened by human weaknesses and failures in extreme emotional situations. And unfortunately they were also the result of organized and criminal acting which can´t be excused ...

 

The second is SPR. The quote is "Look I washed for supper." I have a strange memory for some reason I can recall lines from films....

 

There's war crimes and war crimes. While the killing of soldiers when they try to surrender or have just surrendered in the heat of battle is a war crime, does it really compare to the deliberate and pre-planned murder of 3.5 million POW's through starvation and neglect, or the cold blooded mass murder of millions of unresisting civilians for merely being of a different religion.

 

Redcoat I know what you´re talking about and yes there´s a difference because the cold blooded mass murder of millions of unresisting civilians for merely being of a different religion - it´s a planned killing, a criminal act which can´t be excused. Never!
But makes it a difference for the victims? If you were a 15 year old child killed by neck-shot because you could be someone who took part on a combat a few days before, killing your enemies - although you didn´t? Maybe only because you wear special clothes? Only because the side believe you took part on the combat?
Would you agree that we also have to differentiate between most of the "normal" soldiers who fought on the lines and special german units who killed in the back of the lines ( I know that there were several units which were involved in the killing too and that they were guilty in taking part on war-crimes as well, but most of the soldiers did their job, the things they have to do serving for their country ... ) - Do you think that there were any realistic plans on the german side how to handle a situation to take care for more than 1 Mio. POW´s at the same time while trying to win against Russia in a period of 5 month time? Do you agree that the fight between the russians and the germans was a completely different war than on all other lines in europe and the fight was a brutal fight without any kind of limits on both sides?

 

I came across an interesting statistic just the other day. The Judge Advocate General's office of the US Army had to investigate an average of 500 rapes a DAY in 1945 while the US Army advanced into Germany. In most cases the soldiers just got a reprimand, a couple of days' confinement, and then were sent back into the line. What a marvellous way to send a message to all troops not to do it again.

When you read or hear from veterans that the Germans had a delightful way of surrendering - hands behind the back of their head complete with live grenade - or that they would lie doggo on the field or in dugouts and wait for the enemy infantry to go past before shooting them in the back, you get an idea why some Allied soldiers were not too careful about accepting German surrenders. These stories may have been true, or they may have been false rumours, but they were prevalent at the time and they influenced the soldiers' thinking.

Then you find out that "Bomber" Harris knew that his bombers were not hitting the factory targets they were supposed to, so he started bombing cities indiscriminately on the assumption that he was killing some of the factory workers in there somewhere. And that Truman send offers to surrender to the Japanese through the wrong channels - the Russians, who wanted to wrest some land from the Japanese before the war ended - with the presumable intention of prolonging the war so he could let his boys live test their latest experiments on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Then you have a good idea that histories and war crimes courts are controlled by the winners.

 

Please post the source for that statistic on the rapes in the west. I don't doubt it completely, but since there were a great number of men sentenced for rape, murder, robbery, and brutal treatment of civilians I do question the statement.

I won't get into the bombing strategy of either the Americans nor the RAF, it was total war, not "gentlemanly" war. And that about Truman is totally bogus. The Japanese tried to send HIM a proposal through the Soviets, they refused to see the Japanese representative, and when the Japanese used the Swiss and Swedish offices, their message did get through. And to propagate the myth that the atomics were used to "test their effects" on live humans is simply incorrect and unsupported by any facts.

 

Please, tell me where and when you read or hear from veterans that the Germans had a delightful way of surrendering - hands behind the back of their head complete with live grenades?? I never read a document which described this kind of war-crime attitude of surrendering by german soldiers. Maybe it happened ... but please post the source.

 

The statistics about the rapes were in something I just read recently. That would most likely be "Bounce the Rhine" by Charles Whiting, which dealt mostly with U.S. operations just before and after the crossing of the Rhine.

The reference to the German way of surrender I have read in many different books in which there are reminiscences from veterans. I couldn't pin it down to one particular book, but these are rumours that were passed around, not necessarily actual eyewitness accounts. They were usually attributed to SS troops. However, where there was so much smoke, there probably was a little bit of fire.

 

There was one US intelligence report circulated among the troops to show caution when taking German prisoners because sometimes a submachine gun team would be set up to ambush the GIs. The report is on LoneSentry.com. Brian the veteran engineer on our forum saw some of those tricks when he fought.

 

I'd like to know where he got this one; every source I've read describe the Japanese - US communications concerning ending the war via the Japanese & US embassies in Switzerland.

 

Area bombing was a tactic borrowed off the Luftwaffe, the RAF was so impressed with the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe area attacks on London, Coventry and other British cities they copied it. It should also be noted that this tactic was in place before Harris took command of Bomber Command in 1942

I'm puzzled why Truman would be offering to surrender to the Japanese when it was Japan that was on the point of total defeat ???????
Anywhy, it was actually the Japanese who were attempting to end the war via the Soviets not the United States, and it was the Japanese who were still unwilling to accept the fact they would have to agree to surrender unconditionally.
So in fact it was the Japanese who were prolonging the war not the Allies.

 

We took many prisioners during the war - but I believe it was a selective process. On 7 July 1944 just outside St.Jores in Normandy, 3 SS Soldiers walked toward an American outpost with a white flag. When they reached the outpost, the G.I.s got up to search them at which time the SS man on the left grabbed a MP40 that was strapped to the back of the guy in the middle and cut down the entire outpost - after they had surerendered. My dad's M8 made very short work of the grinning SS contingent. After that event, his troopers were very careful and only if the circumstances were just right, would they take any SS. They took thousands of Wermacht and Axis troops prisioners but not many SS. In Austria, my dad risked his life to pull a Wermacht soldier out of a burning and collapsing building but as he says in his notes, 'when I got to him, the uniform was field grey so I dragged him out. If it had been black, I would probably have left him.' The 9.Hungarian Border Guard Division surrendered to him (8,900 men) and there was no antimosity or hatred - just men on both sides that would have rather been somewhere else. I would immagine that many other Allied soldiers felt the same way but I only know of what my father has written in his journal. It was a matter of self preservation not to take many SS prisioners.

 

Nordwind - If you read my posting about the SS in Normandy you will see such an expamle. The source is an eye-witness, my father, who wrote about it in his daily diary. His M8 dispatched the SS men before their last shell casing hit the ground but it was too late to save the GIs who were trying to accept their surrender. nevguy

 

My god! I cant believe this! That is, just wow. That is so crude, and just, well i was unaware that , the ALLIES committed war crimes.

 

I first read about Allied war crimes a few years ago and was at first surprised but not disappointed nor thinking less of our men in the field. In an ideal world such things would not happen but in the best of ideal worlds there would be no wars. Yes, taking no prisoners is at times necessary and at times not caring to treat your enemy, in this case the army of Nazi Germany, with respectful, decent care occurs. The war saw Germany invade one country after another, attack undefended civilians time and again. What civility do they deserve?

 

why can you not believe this ? In a war,both sides are committing" war crimes"
About the allied ones :legally,they were not "war crimes",because these acts were not punished .
I am sure if some of us had been 6 years in the war,we would not have survived without having done things that 70 years later would be considered as "war crimes".

 

All three incidents involved the 45th Infantry Division.

In two separate incidents on 14 July 1943, near Biscari Airport, Sicily, men of the 180th Infantry Regiment executed a total of 73 PWs, 71 Italians and two Germans. Court-Martials were convened and Capt. John T. Compton was acquited of ordering the execution of 36 PWs. Compton was transferred to the 179th Infantry Regiment and was KIA 8 November 1943 in Italy.

Sgt Horace T. West was convicted of killing 35 Italians and 2 Germans.
West was incarcerated in a military prison until 23 November 1944.
According to Rick Atkinson in The Day of Battle, he was "granted clemancy
on grounds of temporary insanity and restored to active duty, though shorn
of his sergeant's stripes."

His fate, post-release, is not clear.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre

By coincidence, I found today a Master's Thesis entitled American Soldiers and POW Killing in the
European Theater of World War II by Justin Harris. He discusses the Compton trial in
great detail.

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=histtad

Later in the Thesis, he includes this passage from Deadly Brotherhood:

"I‘ve seen a German soldier in a foxhole fire two panzerfaust point-blank
at a tank loaded with our infantrymen, empty a ‗burp gun‘ at the men scrambling
off – then throw down his empty weapons, raise his arms and step out of his hole
yelling, ‗Komerade!‘ That Kraut died with his gut full of M-1 ammunition, his
hands still half raised. I clenched my teeth so hard that little pieces of enamel
broke off the edges, and wished he could have died a slower, more painful
death."

The third incident at Dachau Concentration Camp involved men of 3rd Bn,
157th Infantry Regiment, accused of killing unarmed SS Guards on 29 April 1945,
the day of liberation. Harris discusses this too in significant detail and the subsequent
report by the Inspector General, which George Patton famously tossed in the trash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_massacre


Dave