Alexander movie

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong, but Greek has a lot of words for 'love' - each highly specific. For example, the love of a parent for their child, the love of a man for his siblings, the love of a man for his wife, the lust of a tennage boy for some flirty girl, etc etc.

It all hinges on which actual word was used.

 

There are many words for love in greek. But it's not exactly like what you say. There are words ,for example, that cannot be expressed in english with just one word.

 

Evidence for pederastic ideals in Greek culture don't just exist in writing, though. A great amount of pottery has been found with rather explicit homosexual activity depicted on them. These things are not depicted as being wrong or punishable, rather they usually feature well-to-do people and healthy young boys.

Also, as far as I know, Plutarch wrote in Latin. Did he use only written sources himself? And could he have so glaringly misinterpreted something that had been written down as a social standard a mere few centuries ago?

 

Actually, the amount of pottery featuring pederastic and homosexual activity is very very small when compared with the whole amount of pottery we have.

In fact, Plutarch was Greek so, predictably, he could understand the greek language without any misinterpretion. Also, as far as i know he was able to write both in Greek and Latin as all the Romans that could educate themselves, knew the language as this was an important part of their education. Also, his works were red be Greeks too. The Academy of Athens was still one of the greatest centers of knowledge in the world -- and remained so roughly until the mid 5th century AD -- and there people had to know greek.

 

Naturally, since pederastic relationships were only seen as the standard in more traditional societies and were judged more ambiguously (but rarely condemned outright) in more progressive city states. However, Alexander's Macedon qualifies as one such traditionalist society as far as the military elite of hetairoi was concerned.

Do you honestly believe that our entire idea of the Greek view on homosexuality is based on a mistake in translation? Surely these works have not been translated or studied only once...

As an example of such errors that get corrected over time, you mention the Theban Sacred Band would rely on the next man in the phalanx but this is an inaccuracy; no Greek state but Sparta referred to the common hoplite formation as "phalanx" until the reforms of Alexander. Others just called it "taxis" ("deployment"). This is known to me now, a lowly student; how would our professors neglect such corrections on other subjects?

 

"Hetairoi" means "Companions" in greek.If when you refer to pederastic relationships you include in this carnal contact, the word "Hetairoi",as a noun, does not have that meaning.

Because these works were studied more than once(not only in the past) the myth of homosexuality in ancient Greece is collapsing.

Spartans, Thebans, Athenians, Macedonians and all the other Greeks fought in the same way until the reforms of Philip II--father of Alexander(General Ifikrates (late 5th century BC) made some innovations by combining the traditional hoplites with an improved corps of peltasts and thus, making the hoplite phalanxes a more maneuverable corps.). Moreover the macedonian phalanx was divided in companies. Each one of them was also known as "taxis" and was named after the name of its leader.
Generaly, there was no difference in the way the men were deployed in the formations during the battle before the macedonian reforms. Before Philip the hoplites were counting on the protection offered by the shield of their co-warriors and after Philip to the wall of spears that they presented to the enemy. Either way, the key for its effective use was the tight and coherent formations.

 

I know that, but the hetairoi were Macedonian nobles and they were very conservative in their values and ideas. Pederastic and bisexual relationships among their ranks would have been perfectly normal.

I know they all fought in the same way, but only the Spartans called it the phalanx. Others called it taxis. It would be more accurate, therefore, to call the hoplite formation "taxis" and the sarissa-pikeman formation (which was different from that of the hoplite in density and depth as well as armament) the phalanx.

By the way, your information about Iphikrates is a bit off. This Athenian general made his reforms in the early 4th, rather than late 5th century, and his most famous exploits were during the Corinthian War. The army he commanded consisted exclusively of peltasts, and he most definitely was not the inventor of combined arms warfare with hoplites. The credit for that must go to Demosthenes.

 

I didn't say Ifikrates was the inventor of combined arms.I said he was an innovator that made the peltasts more battleworthy -- as before him they were considered an inferior part of the army. So, the greek armies that adopted his plans became more agile in the field. You are right about Corinthian War and his reforms in the early 4th. I must have had a blonde moment...

Why would have been perfectly normal?
All greeks would consider such acts -- and homosexuality -- as an insult (Ivris) towards nature and the divine. You know about the story of Laius, father of Oidipus?

 

Interestingly, Iphikrates changed nothing about the Thracian-style equipment of his mercenaries initially. He only changed the weapons and armour of his troops when he was required to fight for Egypt, a country used to longer spears than the Greeks at the time.

The peltasts were considered an inferior part of the army before and after his efforts, though - this was not a matter of military realism but of aristocratic pride. Real men fought hand to hand. Even though Demosthenes, Alkibiades and Xenophon (among others - these are the most famous ones) had already proven the effect of properly used peltasts in hoplite warfare before Iphikrates' victory at Lechaion.

Because, like I said, homosexuality and pederastic relationships were considered normal and even beneficial in more conservative societies of the ancient Greek world. Macedonian nobility qualifies.

My source for this is a handbook on Ancient History written by two Dutch professors on the subject, Naerebout and Singor, in 2001.

 

very intresting point ,mcris

 

Peltasts became more battleworthy by fighting in a style that included tactics that remind guerilla and modern ranger tactics.

I am aware of that. I sould have written that's up to how realistic is the mind of each general. However i think the use of peltasts came to its peak during Alexander's campaign in the mountains(hyspaspists were there too -- but also proved themselves earlier) of the Persian Empire.

Pederasts and homosexuals were treated with despise in ancient Greece because -- like i said -- such acts were violations of the natural and divine laws.

PS; Thebans were using the word "phalanx" for the hoplite formation(mostly this was the Sacred Band) that exexuted a sidelong maneuver in order to hit the enemy's flank.

 

Let's have another aproach. You do know that the Hellenic (that is the right word, not Greek) population believed in a relegion nowdays called dodecatheism. When the christians started to supplant the old relegion, they had to find a way to persuade the population that their relegion was the purest, best, right etc. What is the best way to undermine an older regime? Convince the population that anything related to it is baleful, sinful, blight. So, the christians made up stories, distorting the way history remembered the Hellenic way of life. A contemporary "legend" is the one of homosexuality in ancient Hellas. McRis is right; the words are truely mistranslated. Think that the modern Hellenic language has altered the ancient meaning of the words. How about translating the words in a newly (for that time) created language (Latin) full of concept gaps.

 

I provided my sources, gentlemen, where are yours?

Zeratul: I find it much more likely that the Christians found and morally redefined the ancient customs of pederastic relationships, rather than invent them to make the old Greek culture (since these relationships were not part of the religion but of the culture!) look bad. After all, they could hardly try to make a culture on which half their own religion was based look too morally depraved.

 

The fact that christianity is based on the old religions was an effective way to convert populations to their side. Christians did not only try to cease the religious part of the Greeks, but also anything that would remind of the old ways. Proof: destroyed pieces of art, savaged temples, burned books and texts etc

 

Both words are right as both appear in ancient Greek(or Hellenic if you like) and refer to the same civilization. "Greek" means "Indigenous" and "Hellas" means "land of Sun".

Also, weren't the Christians that made up the myth of homosexuality. Christians were less liberal (and thus, many ancient statues had certain parts destroyed) but for them homosexuality was as immoral as the Greeks concerned it to be.

PS; I mostly use as sources books of a greek historian(named Georgiades) and books of the works of ancient philosophers,rhetorians etc.

 

I'm sorry McRis, but Georgiades is nothing more than a moralistic wannabe book reviewer.

 

Which sources do you use to make your claims concerning Ancient Greek morals and values, then, Zeratul?

 

Well, Zeratul, this wannabe has a really deep knowledge of the Greek language(both modern and ancient) and Greek history. Furthermore, he always supports his opinions with sources from ancient texts etc.
(Not like that loony in a TV programme who states that the Greeks came from Sirius )

 

But he does the same thing too! He is a bloody lunatic that want's to sale his books! Furthermore, his "Greek text sources" are not the only Greek texts that exist! He has to support his notions with texts in order to be credent, but concurrently he has to avoid certain parts that bear out the contrary opinion.

 

Well, since you are so aware of the "other" Greek texts that are not taken into account...go ahead and name them!