Anyone interested in some intellectual exercise?

I would second the good Admiral's opinion. These two are only good for 21-23 knots which limits their utility.

 

You are correct about the Reorganized National Government of China, the problem is it is viewed as a puppet government of Japan and therefore blamed for some of the attrocities the radical Imperial Army elements committed. We need a fresh start. First, we need to establish a press to spread our propoganda. Then we need to tell how the radical element within our Army in China attempted to destroy our own government and seize control over our own people. We need to stress that we identified and destroyed them. We need to lay the blame for past mis-steps at this element's feet. We need to begin to get the Chinese in Japanese controlled areas thinking that we will enable them to establish a government accountable to the people. We start in the major cities I mentioned, plus Peiping, and spread from there. We have tried initiatives to get the populace on our side but implementation has been haphazard. We need to do it correctly from the start. The only reasonable way I see to have even a chance at erasing past history is to dissolve the government and reform it. We also need to disband the military forces and start over, but using the trained service members as a trained cadre to form the new formations around. The military was created by our predecessors and is likely to continue to reflect their attitudes. We need to restart and indoctrinate all service members new and old in some basic principles, the military's subserviant position to the elected civilian government, their obligation to protect the people not special interest groups or governmental factions, the military's need to abide by certain laws including respect for the person and their property. No rape, no theft, no murder, no wanton destruction for no reason. We need to form the perception with the people that the Chinese military is honorable, respectful of the law and there as a protector against bandits, warlords, communists, and all the other entities that have exploited them. I prefer to raise them in homogenous areas, areas where they are from, troops from an area are less likely to commit depredations against their own people. Their chain of command would go up to their provincial government and be able to be called upon by the national government. This will prevent too much power being placed under the control of a central entity. They would be something like the United States National Guard, but would be full time not part time soldiers. This will also allow us to use the Chinese to act against a particular provincial governor if he decides he wants to become a warlord. We need to have the Chinese draft and adopt a Constitution conferring rights to the citizenry and then have the military swear an oath to defend them. We can include religious freedom as a right and thereby garner some good will from the various religions that the people recognize. Disbanding and reforming the government will also allow us to counter the pro-Chaing propoganda about the old government. If we do it correctly we can also convince the American public that we are on the correct path in regards to China.

 

I would second the good Admiral's opinion. These two are only good for 21-23 knots which limits their utility.

I hate to argue with someone who agrees with me but my assessment was that the ships would be useful as convoy escorts, just not for working with carrier forces, even H&J.

As noted, I would not object to giving them to whoever our Chinese partners end up being, but in that case I would not expend resources modernizing or rearming them. Unless our war effort goes very badly, the Chinese should only be dealing with submarines.

 

If we give them to the Chinese how would they be utilized. Do the Chinese have the means to man and maintain the ships. I would be more in favor of patrol type boats, that they can use on their inland waterways. THe two cruisers sound like they could be of use near Rangoon, where there is the threat of air, but their speed would not be such a liability

 

No need to argue, I agreed with your entire assesment. The honorable Prime Minister asked:

You replied:

I can see this as a valid mission considering the capabilities of the two ships.

Again I agree completely. They are much smaller and of less displacement than our training cruisers, which we have determined to be of limited utility. They are really close in displacement to our Asashio class destroyers, but with about 30' less length. Ping-Hai displaces 2448 tons standard and Ning-Hai 2526 tons standard. Ning-Hai is good for a maximum of 23 kts., Ping-Hai 21 kts. The Junyo and Hiyo are good for 25.5 knts., so using the two Chinese cruisers as escorts for these two ships would actually be counter productive. A fast convoy would be travelling at a maximum speed of 18 knots (Yusen A, Yusen S and Kyushu class cargo vessels or 19 knots for the Type-N tanker). Either way the 21 knots of the slower ship meets your expressed requirement of "should have at least a few knots margin of speed over whatever they are escorting".
So we have a two to four knot margin over our fastest merchant type, three to five over the bulk of our fastest ships and even more over the bulk of our merchant fleet. So suitable for merchant convoy escort work.

 

I could see the value in establishing a joint convoy escort pool when the need arises. We could "encourage" our Chinese allies to supply these two ships as escort group leaders on routes originating or terminating in Chinese waters. These two cruisers aren't terribly useful for much else, given their slow speed and remarkably thin skin, but at least the equipment should be relatively standard with our own since we both built them initially and refitted them after we sank them some months back. What are the terms of the internment of the French squadron in Indochina? This includes a number of useful escorts and a cruiser. Further, what is the status of our relations with Thailand? Perhaps their navy could also be suitably encouraged to participate in joint trade protection exercises. (Though many of their ships are woefully ill-equipped and some are no doubt still damaged from the recent dispute with the French.) If there's a way to use them I can get the specifics on both the Indochina station and the Royal Thai Navy. (I avoid "Siam" as it is an exonym not much in favor locally. I believe it means "brown" in one or another Chinese dialect.)

Sincerely,
Admiral Noka

 

Since these two ships are closer to destroyers rather than cruisers and we will be counting upon loyal Chinese forces to effect ASW/convoy operations for us, then returning these ships to them should be done.

Prime Minister

 

As I recall the pair have extremely limited native ASW capabilities. Do we wish to effect the addition of a suitable ASW suite before their return (an early new year's gift, perhaps, since we would doubtless paint the sonodome a nice lucky shade of red), or do we wish to wait so that they might fund such modifications from their own military budget? While cruisers, per se, don't generally make particularly good ASW platforms, these should do fine since they're really much more akin to coastal defense vessels than anything else. (They resemble destroyers only in approximate size.) In my own lists I classify them as "PG" for Patrol Gunboat.

 

To be honest I would see them more as convoy flagships and a air defence platform that had a ASW capability. Since we are holding off most conversions until after our initial moves, would we not have space/time now to improve the ASW Suite?

 

My opinion would be to return them as is for the time being. Initially, I would like as many of our vessels assigned to escort work to have the best ASW fit we can afford. Their return to China is really a means to build good will in China. We are returning two marginally capable ships, comparable in size to a modern destroyer. The news will portray that Japan has returned two cruisers to be used in forming a new navy, for a new government, a govenment that has signed an agreement to set China on a path to Independance and self government. When we abolish the existing government we put out the story that it was necessary to eliminate the criminal elements and those bent upon exploiting the people. There will be the promise that once self-government is established within the local, then regional governments, there will be a national election where the people can choose their national leaders. In the meantime their local elected officials will represent them on the regional level. Then their elected regional officials will represent their local interests before the national government. A Constitution will be drafted and placed before the people for approval. A Constitution that will emumerate the basic rights that all people should enjoy, and set up a government where the peoples wishes will be represented. It will limit the powers of the national government so that ambitious men, with the most money and the largest army of hired mercenaries cannot take back the rights the new constitution will guarantee. We give them the hope an vision that China will again regain her former glory and prestige. The Chinese people will gain the rights an priviledges enjoyed by the people of the western democracies, but these same western democracies will no longer be in the position to exploit the Chinese people. We will have equality, something Japan pushed for when she, along with the the western democracies, fought and won the last great war. Something that despite Japan's service was denied in the Covenant of the League of Nations. Baron Nobuaki Makino, of the Japanese delegation said it well, "We are not too proud to fight but we are too proud to accept a place of admitted inferiority in dealing with one or more of the associated nations. We want nothing but simple justice."
The great Chinese leader, Sun-Yat-Sen, after the First Guangzhou uprising, sought refuge in Japan. His cause was supported and mentored and provided with financial assistance by many forward thinking, prominent Japanese. After the Huizhou uprising he was again forced to seek refuge in Japan, England, the United States and Canada. He was welcomed in Japan, but arrested in the United States because he violated the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. Just another example of how western nations speak of equality but do not want we Asian peoples in their nations, treated equally or with justice. Sun then joined with revolutionary Chinese students studying in Tokyo, Japan. They formed the Tongmenghui and facilitated resistance and uprisings in China against the corrupt Qing dynasty. Again, Japan aided his noble goal. Finally, he achieved what he had fought so long and hard for, when the Xinhai Revolution ended the power of the Qing's and Emperor Puyi, over the Chinese people, and the Republic of China was formed.
One of his associates, Yuan Shikai, had powerful military forces, and while he played a large part in forcing the Qing's from power, he was ambitious and seized control of the government for himself, even proclaiming himself Emperor. Sun did not give up on his dream for the Chinese people. Wang Jingwei stood with Sun during these times and was one of his chief lieutenants. Upon Sun's death from cancer in 1925, one of his general's, Chaing Kai Shek attempted to seize control, the revolution splintered and the Chinese people again lost what they were so close to attaining. Chaing now controls an loose coalition of warlords and bandits that are more interested in what they can take from the populace than realizing Sun's dream for the people.

We in Japan are not without blame. We supported Sun's dream. When Sun died and China decended into chaos, a carcass for the different splinter groups to divide up and fight over, Japan sent tropps in to stabilize the situation. It is here we lost our way. There were ambitious men within our armies that attempted to oppress the Chinese people, to control our own government and turned their back on the principles we had sent them to China to protect. They did gain power, they did gain control, but good, honorable men in our government opposed them. This culminated in the recent coup attempt where they attempted to gain complete control of the government by killing those that opposed them, to include our own Emperor. Their rebellion was crushed, and they no longer hold power over our people and government. We now need to, we now desire to, help China overthrow the evil elements that control their government. The Chaing's and the Communists that wish to enslave, extort and oppress the people. We cannot go back and erase our mistakes. We can go forward, side by side, with the Chinese people and help them gain what the Japanese just recently regained, and help them achieve what Sun-Yat-Sen fought so long and hard for.

 

Hear, hear! Well said honorable Secretary! If we can follow the path that you have laid down, divine Japan will be worthy of our great name and gallant ancestors. It is an auspicious goal.

 

I too applaud the proposed program, but does it seem a bit inconsistent to then be going to war in a couple of weeks? Our predecessors' China policy is the root of our dispute with the United States and the cause of their inveigling the other Europeans to support measures like embargos and aid to Chiang via the Burma Road. Our new policy is to remove the cause for war, although it will take some time for it to bear fruit and for the westerners to appreciate our sincerity.

Announcing our new policy and then going to war will give the appearance that we are only doing it for military advantage.

We also propose reopening China's markets to trade from all countries; this may seem a hollow gesture if we then go to war with them.

 

In order to continue our present course we will need access to oil supplies presently controlled by Western powers. Do we believe that we have any chance of a negotiated end to the Western oil embargoes? If so, it's worth giving it time to occur, but I frankly don't believe that likely. Further, I don't think war with the Western colonial powers is inconsistent with our larger goal of creating a free and prosperous Asian sphere. (Since I don't believe the European powers will willingly give up their colonial possessions.) We can avoid war with the U.S. for the present, and perhaps drive a wedge between the U.S. and the Europeans; after all, the U.S. has in fact agreed to surrender its major Asian colony to a new, independent state. If Britain, Holland, and France were willing to do the same we might well be able to avoid this. Can Churchill be convinced to either see reason? I cannot believe any other party is likely to replace the current Torry government in the U.K. so long as they are still at war with Germany. (Which will no doubt continue for some time, thanks to Berlin's ill advised attack on Russia. Perhaps someone in the previous army faction should have warned them against that, not that they likely would have listened.)

 

Very good questions Admiral. Furthermore I agree with the thinking behind your questions. Unfortunately, I do think war is inevitable. The reason is time. Now, that there is an oil and steel embargo in force against us, we only have a limited window before our economy begins to collapse. It is already creating hardships on some of our people, even though we planned ahead and stockpiled large quantities of fuel and resources. Chiang has a very effective propoganda machine at work in the United States, and those in power support and will continue to support him. We can, through an effective propoganda campaign ourselves mitigate the effect of Chiang's machine with the electorate and the isolationist politicians in Washington.
I do propose that we do provide the American government with an account of the recent events and allow them the opportunity to come to a negotiated settlement with us. We need to stress that their economic policies are destroying our economy and people. That we wish to avoid confrontation if at all possible, but will not allow our country to be paupered. We must however plan for their rejection. If they do accept and we can come to a negotiated settlement we cancel the military operations. If they do not come to a negotiated settlement we attack the British and the Dutch possessions, because to do otherwise would be to commit national suicide. We need to take our case not just to the American administration, but to the populace and opposition politicians. If and when war is forced upon us, we will have already made our case and it will be evident that war was the result of the situation we were placed in and not that we feigned negotiating to obtain a military advantage. Plus, we will not be attacking all the western powers, just the British and Dutch, we will be allied with the French and will make no hostile act towards America, or Australia or their possessions. I do not think they will be receptive to a negotiated settlement because underlying the entire situation is the wish to gain access to the huge Chinese market and Chinese resources. Britain and the United States both want this and do not look to share access with us. They wish to gain an economic advantage, as we ourselves do. The difference is that they wish to exploit the Chinese people, as we have recently done. Where our new course differs is that I hope to establish an economic empire free of western influence. Our industry requires the raw materials China can produce. We require a larger market for our industry to sell to. A China full of peasants will not have the purchasing power to keep our industry growing and expanding. A China full of educated, productive citizens, producing wealth and consuming products is to our advantage. There are two ways to increase economic wealth, produce something and generate money from the sale or invest in something and gain wealth as that thing gains in value or generates income. We, both the government and private industries, will be providing the financing, machinery and expertise to start the process. We will insist on China's guarantee of foreign investments, namely us. We will own many of these entities or a percentage of them. As China's economy grows our investments should grow also. As China prospers our businesses in China should prosper.

 

Even if we can come to an agreement, it doesnt solve the problem of someone else controlling the resources. THe Dutch empire is finished and probably the British, so why not let us be the new dominant power in the area.

 

You are correct General. That is why I suggested we start with the four major population centers I mentioned, plus the capital at Peiping. We already control them. Operations in north and central China will be necessarily different from those in south China. In north and central China, we make our announcement of the new government. Use the five locations as training and reorganization centers, so there are troop concentrations there. I wish to make them the locations for Admiral Noka's naval logistical centers. We can employ the populace as longshoremen, transport drivers, construction workers, set up trade schools and teach the necessary skills for machinists, factory workers, shipfitters, mechanics, etc. We pay a wage/stipend during their training. We include indoctrination in the course study, so they gain some idea of their responsibilities and rights in a democratic society. We do this in parallel with our construction of factories and shipyards, so when the construction is completed, we have a skilled work force. Militarily, Nishio will begin operations to expand the areas we control out from these centers. His focus will be that once we control an area we can provide security for the liberated villages/towns, While this is taking place, he will be training joint Japanese/Chinese military forces that are trained in security/stabalization operations, along with major combat formations, also the reorganization of our own forces. When we have made sufficient progress in this area, we will begin major combat operations aimed seizing additional territory and destroying opposing Chinese forces. I will discuss south China seperately.

The two cruisers are of limited use anywhere except in areas with limited enemy threats. As to Chinese naval personnel, we will need to train additional and practice in operating in concert with our forces, but training Chinese as sailors should be no more problematic than training new Japanese sailors to fill the same role.
Fuel will be our navy's Achilles Heel, routine operations will need to be conducted by smaller units with less fuel requirements. Because of it's proximity to the oil/fuel centers in the SRA, I propose Singapore as the major base of operations in all areas except the south and central Pacific, where Truk will be our Japanese Pearl Harbor. We will need to base our Kido Butai and major fleet units at Truk to counter potential US moves and to support expansion operations as required. From Singapore we should be able to adequately provide naval support to you against Rangoon.

You are correct. If we have the fuel and resources in the areas the British and Dutch currently control, we will for a time be self-sufficient.

South China is a different proposition because of the heavy concentration of enemy Chinese forces. When General Nishio returns I would like to address that area seperately.

 

We must accept that in our relations with both our subject peoples, those who soon will be and the west, there must be a duality in what we say and what we do. Our motives are not altruistic but are contingent to the needs of our Empire.

That being said, we can still offer them more than they are currently receiving from either their own overlords or their European masters. We must project this in its most flattering light, even if it is done with a measure of embellishment, as our margin of success is too narrow for us to trod only the moral high ground.

Rest assured that our current and future enemies are also struggling with such moral dilemma's

Prime Minister.

 

considiering that Chiang is despite his American propaganda, a gangster, it will not be hard to win supprt from him. The difficult part will be showing people we have changed. Millions have lost their lives and property and we will need years probably to undo the damage.

 

It is possible that we can do better regaining respect in China than we can in the West, strange as that sounds, particularly in the countryside. Since China is not so connected to the instant flow of information that the Western media has become anger against us will be both slower to spread and more entrenched, as it will be a personal thing spread through families and communities. But since it will be more personal, direct action and personal (perhaps unofficial) apologies might do more to diffuse it. Our actions will speak loudly in China, both bad and good. Our image in the Western media will be more capricious. We will have much less control over it, much less opportunity to influence it directly, but it will also be more fleeting.

 

I wonder how much the game will let us have that control