Atomic bomb

Quote by rick
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Projections at the time for waiting them out went to years.
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About 2-3 months according to the U.S. Strategic bombing survey, [before the invasion date] and probably sooner, after the soviets declared war and threatened to invade Japan.

But suppose it went longer, would you advocate trading a million American casualties vs negliable casualties, for shortening the war, and inconvenience of the troops.

Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.

 

So what? Your sense isn't what was making the decisions. Again, I have not advocated for or against the bomb or invasion. Just the thinking and happenings on the ground at the time. The 'wait' would not have been just sitting around. It would have been continued blockade and bombings. Bombings that had already caused 3/4 million casualties and displaced over 9 million. With our 'hindsight' we have to look at all the options that could have been taken, and the costs involved. For us, and the Japanese.

 

I asked, would you advocate going ahead with the invasion?
Or for that matter, use the bombs?

 

The fact of whether it was necessary can be argued, but the reality was that the military accepted the high degree of losses required to take the islands. How many islands could have been by-passed, but we took control of them anyway? Look at teh sheer number of losses at Iwo and Okinawa. They had the plans in place to assault the Japanese homeland. And the Japanese people were willing to die for the emperor. It would not be practical to hold millions of troops in the islands surrounding Japan, in a seige mode. The decision that was made, turned out to be for the best. It saved U.S. troops, it cost less Japanese deaths than prolonged convential bombing, and it stopped the USSRs thrust to take territory as our ally.

 

Don't let em shake ya Rick!
I agree with your words.
All said (pressured)(to the U.S.) to end the war as quickly as possible. Then when it ended, all "Flip-Flopped" to ....you shouldn't have done that! (how typical of todays world)(not to recognize the sacrifice/effort/conundrum) of how to get it done with the least casualties to ALL!
I heard about none of this debate on V-J Day!
You can't have both.
All is hind-sight...now.
Those in charge back then are either dead or dying. So what will this prove/dis-prove/accomplish?
The invasion was ON. No matter what (without surrender).
Anything that would stop the massive destruction of all involved (2-million people)(at least)(both sides)(unknown monetary)(both sides), is better? NO?
Or do some have a "Blood-Lust"?
The Pro argument has equal merit to the Con. NO?

 

The debate on this will no doubt go on for a very long time, and both sides have good arguments.


A few reasons why the bomb was needed or justified:

The Japanese had demonstrated near-fanatical resistance, fighting to almost the last man on Pacific islands, committing mass suicide on Saipan and unleashing kamikaze attacks at Okinawa. Fire bombing had killed 100,000 in Tokyo with no discernible political effect. Only the atomic bomb could jolt Japan's leadership to surrender.

With only two bombs ready (and a third on the way by late August 1945) it was too risky to "waste" one in a demonstration over an unpopulated area.

An invasion of Japan would have caused casualties on both sides that could easily have exceeded the toll at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The two targeted cities would have been firebombed anyway.

Immediate use of the bomb convinced the world of its horror and prevented future use when nuclear stockpiles were far larger.

The bomb's use impressed the Soviet Union and halted the war quickly enough that the USSR did not demand joint occupation of Japan.


Why the bomb was not needed, or unjustified:


Japan was ready to call it quits anyway. More than 60 of its cities had been destroyed by conventional bombing, the home islands were being blockaded by the American Navy, and the Soviet Union entered the war by attacking Japanese troops in Manchuria.

American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance.

A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people.

Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki.

The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development.

The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one, and thousands of Koreans were killed.

Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons.


It's a tough call.

 

I'd have probably gone with the bombs. For several reasons. 1, to demonstrate to the japanese the fruitlessness of resistance. 2, to show the Russians the power of the bomb. And 3, to convince OUR army that an invasion wouldn't be necessary. But again, I wasn't living through the times, and I don't have the perspective they did.

 

Not ahaken at all. Many of the same ones that afterwards claimed the bomb should not have been used are the same ones that had already ordered the firebombs that created 100s of 1000s of casualties and rendered millions homeless. The irony of their willingness to burn the enemy to death by many more in numbers is not missed by those that read history.

 

agreed

All I tried was to put out a perspective with as little of our modern-day prejudices as possible.

 

Anzac.
I agree with most of what we've all said, it is a tough call and no one answer covers everything.
The "3" things the Japanese wanted before a surrender were,
1. No occupation
2. They were going to conduct their own war crimes trials in Japan, by Japanese courts.
3. The Emperor was to remain intact/untouched.
The first two were the "sticklers", not the Emperor thing (which they got).
The first two would set a precident of treating WAR as a sport, with little or no consequence. It would invite violent "Imperialism" because one could throw in the "towel" at any time, and only loose what was already lost, or keep what they win.
I can see a need to deny the first two, or be prepaired to do the same again, and again.
A pity the Japanese insisted on such (the first two) outrageous conditions before capitulation.
I believe it was 58 Cities, from 35% to 55% destroyed by bombing.
As with Stalingrad... a destroyed city makes a good fortress, when added to a strong will.

 

Some interesting views here............

http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

 

Anzac : your link shows that many very high ranked military leaders, (including Eisenhower for example) thought AT THE TIME the decision was taken (and not while having tea 10 years after) that nuking Japan was useless and/or just bad.

Of course, it doesn't mean they were right and Truman was wrong, which is debatable, but IT PROVES that this kind of opinion (nuke = bad and/or useless) is not reserved to pacifists, ignorant of the stakes at the time and debating the subject years after the facts.

 

Before this thread goes further, I would like to take you to an orientation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiNLclnckZs&mode=related&search=

 

In 1945 people were not aware of the devasting effects of Radiations, so we should not blame people for that reason. Remember those terrible Cold War images of Russians soldiers running in open fields after a nuclear Explosion. They just didn't have a clue.
The 1945 spirit was to end the war A.S.A.P, obviously win it and if possible, spares lives. Therefore I say amen.

 

Just for curiosity's sake, from a book I'm reading at the moment, "War in the Pacific", newspaper articles Marine Brig.Gen. Jerome Hagen (ret.) was writing.

"THE LIE OF MARCUS McDILDA

On the evening of August 8, 1945, in Osaka, Japan, several kempei tai (Japanese secret police) were questioning an American flyer who had been shot down earlier in the day. The flyer, Lt. Marcus McDilda, had been recovered from the ocean, bound, blindfolded, and forced to walk the gauntlet of angry civilians through the city streets. When the beatings at the hands of the civilians ended, McDilda was taken to a typical kempei tai interrogation room where Japanese officers began to question him.

McDilda was questioned for hours. The same questions would be asked again and again, and each time he was beaten if his responses were not to the liking of his questioners. The questioning intensified as did the beatings. What did he know of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima two days earlier? Absolutely nothing, McDilda responded.

Believing that they were on to something, the kempei tai brought in a general officer just before midnight to break McDilda. The general demanded that McDilda tell him about the atomic bomb. When McDilda said nothing, the general drew his sword and held it before McDilda's face. Then he jabbed forward, cutting through McDilda's lip. Blood streamed down the pilot's chin and flight suit. The general screamed, "If you don't tell me about the bomb, I'll personally cut off your head." Then he stalked from the room.

McDilda had been beaten up enough. His body ached from the beatings received during the march, his Up throbbed from the sword cut, and now a fresh crew of questioners approached. According to author WilUam Craig, McDilda embarked upon a lie worthy of the best storyteller.' McDilda began:

"As you know ..., when atoms are split, there are a lot of pluses and minuses released. Well, we've taken these and put them in a huge container and separated them from each other with a lead shield. When the box is dropped out of a plane, we melt the lead shield and the pluses and minuses come together. When that happens, it causes a tremendous bolt of lightning and all the atmosphere over a city is pushed back! Then when the atmosphere rolls back, it brings about a tremendous thunderclap, which knocks down everything beneath it."4

When pushed to further describe the bomb, McDilda added that it was about 36 feet long and 24 feet wide. The interrogators were delighted but needed to know one thing more. Where was the next target for the new weapon? McDilda chose the two Japanese cities he could think of and responded, "Kyoto and Tokyo. Tokyo is supposed to be bombed in the next few days." The kempei tai continued to ask questions, but McDilda had reached a point where he could only go back and repeat his lies. One of the interrogators left the room and put through a call to the headquarters of the secret police in Tokyo.

The next morning, McDilda was flown from Osaka to Tokyo where he became a "very important person" to the Japanese secret police. McDilda's questioner in Tokyo was a civilian who wore a pinstripe suit. "I am a graduate of CCNY College," he told McDilda, "and most interested in your story about the atomic bomb." McDilda repeated his story again. After several minutes, the official knew that McDilda was a fake who knew nothing about nuclear fission. When asked why he was telling such a lie, McDilda responded that he had tried, without success, to tell his interrogators that he knew nothing about the bomb but had to invent the lie to stay alive. The Japanese official laughed. McDilda was taken to a cell, given some food, and waited for the unknown.

McDilda, at the time, had no idea that his lie had saved his life. Shortly after the emperor had broadcast the news of defeat, more than 50 American prisoners at the Osaka secret police headquarters were beheaded by vengeful Japanese soldiers.8

Nineteen days later, on August 30, the Fourth Marine Regiment landed near the Omori POW camp on the Tokyo waterfront. Cmdr. Harold Stassen, USN, later senator from Minnesota, walked to the gates of Omori where he was challenged by the Japanese commandant, who said that he had no authority to turn the prisoners over to him. Stassen kicked him squarely in the backside (yeah! ), looked coldly at the officer, and said, "You have no authority period." Among the prisoners released were McDilda and Pappy Boyington, the marine corps ace of the South Pacific."

 

Thank you for sharing this with us ZA , it's a great story and very instructive too.

 

Truly under such pressure, that is ingenious! I demand nuclear physicists try this.

 

The Nagasaki bomb was 7000 F/C degrees which was hotter than the sun.

 

Fission vs Fusion
Guess which one is 100 times more powerful?
A "Peanut" nuclear device they were.
Glad we all got that out of our psyche.
We have bigger problems now.
Sunamis
Bhopal
Three Mile Island
Chernobyl
Half life is hard to understand for most, and easily (the number doubled) to think it's gone.
Not so, when a 100th of a percent will kill you (us). This # is deceptive (false sense of security), and may last (consequences) for decades.
I remember seeing Cousteau(sp) visiting Bikini Atol. Finding Crabs as big as "Man-Hole" covers, but they couldn't eat them because they were full of Radiation (glowed in the dark, so to speak).
These are some numbers of some Isotopes released at Chernobyl compaired to the Hiroshima bomb.
Caesium-137...890 to 1
Strontium-90...87 to 1
Iodine-131...25 to 1
Xenon-133...31 to 1
Bombs(fission) release (usually) more at detonation (and then burn up), but leaks(fusion) are definately...worse.
Their effects linger.
By the percentages indicated.
Europe has yet to find out what the consequences of Chernobyl are.

 

As Skipper says.
I have a video (VHS) of one of the last survivors of the Bikini tests. He's dieing and just then getting care through the VA. 85% of the other troops ordered to be envolved in the tests were already dead, because their claims were denied.
A little goodie anyone can get off the internet, that explains much in as few words as possible.
Answers.com
The Code of Bushido in WW2 was used as a tool to motivate the ignorant masses to murder and die in the name of the emperor.
For example, the rape, torture and murder of over 300,000 "unarmed" civilians in Nanking was justified by the arrogance and racism of the Code.
The estimated 10 (some say 20) million Chinese (mostly civilians) killed, starved and murdered with biological weapons by the Japanese was not at all "Honorable".
The military in control of the government (KEY-words there eh?), and the puppet "Divine" emperor used the Code to brainwash and control the ordinary soldier.
Some of the Code's character traits such as Justice, Unselfishness, Righteousness, Honor and Virtue were a joke in WW2.
Bushido was used by Officers when commiting suicide if you lose, and by the rest in fighting to the death. Using the "Divine Wind" or kamikaze to die in large numbers for naught was renamed "Passing Wind" by U.S. pilots.
Blind obedience in the name of Country---what a waste!
The Japanese people deserved better.