Battle of Britian

The Germans had it worse than the RAF for sure, and they forced to defend themselves because Churchill kept harassing them. Hitler wanted to be an ally of Britain.

 

Poor old Hitler - one of history's misunderstood cuddly people. I even read somewhere that he loved dogs, too !

 

Thats right! Damn Churchill for harassing him!! It wasn't like Germany and Britain were at war with eachother LOL .

 

There ain't no tune in this song your singing. Whatever reign of fire the Germans received was well deserved as well as any country that starts a war with the intent to enslave. As for Hitler wanting to be allies with Churchill, only if the Brits submitted (eventually) to the new order..............think not!

POS, Your are treading some pretty thin ice here making accusations which are twisted.................just a friendly tap on the head.

 

From the Movie "The Producers",

Franz Liebkind: You know, not many people know zis, but der F¸hrer was a terrific dancer.
Max Bialystock: Really? Gee, we didn't know that, did we, Leo?
Leo Bloom: No, we sure didn't.
Franz Liebkind: THAT'S BECAUSE YOU WERE TAKEN IN BY THE BBC! Filthy British lies! But did they ever say a bad word about Winston Churchill? CHURCHILL!
[gags]
Franz Liebkind: With his cigars, and his brandy, and his ROTTEN paintings! ROTTEN! Hitler, there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!

 

No, I think they try to stick to facts.

The Germans began bombing cities in Poland on 1st September, before the British and French entered the war. When the British and French entered the war, they did not bomb Germany, only German warships at sea. Any attack that could produce civilian casualties, eg attacking a warship in port, was banned.

That didn't change until March 1940, when the Germans bombed the Orkney Islands. The targets were Royal Navy facilities, but some of the bombs went astray, and killed a British civilian.

In response, the RAF carried out a raid on a seaplane base on the island of Sylt.

There were no further attacks until the Germans invaded Norway. The Luftwaffe bombed several Norwegian towns heavily. The British and French still didn't bomb Germany.

On the 10th May the Germans invaded France, Belgium and the Netherlands, accompanied by heavy bombing. The bombing was aimed at military targets, but of course civilians were also killed. One of these attacks was aimed at the French city of Dijon, but the bombers got so off course they bombed the German city of Freiburg instead, killing about 60 civilians. The Germans made a lot of propaganda out of this, even though they knew it was friendly fire by the Luftwaffe.

On the night of 10/11 May the allies launched their first bombing attacks on Germany, with raids on transport targets west of the Rhine. The British contribution was about 8 medium bombers, iirc.

The Germans continued to bomb, and the British continued to bomb west of the Rhine, until the 15th May, when the Germans devastated Rotterdam, killing about 900 civilians. The RAF was then authorised to attack military targets anywhere in Germany.


As to the attacks on London and Berlin, the first was an attack on London on the 15th August, when the Germans bombed Croydon. They were aiming at an airfield, but also hit a soap and perfume factory, killing about 60 civilians.

18/19 Aug: German bombs hit 3 areas of London, Croydon, Wimbledon and the Maldens

22/23 Aug: Bombs fall on London suburbs of Slough, Richmond Park and Dulwich

24/25 Aug: Bombs fall on Central London for the first time, and the boroughs of Islington, Tottenham, Finsbury, Millwall, Stepney, Leyton, East Ham, Coulsdon and Bethnal Green

25/26 Aug: Bombs fall on London suburbs of Banstead, Croydon, Lewisham, Uxbridge, Harrow and Hayes. This was also the first time the RAF raided Berlin. Damage was light, and there were no casualties.

28/29 Aug: Bombs fall on the London suburbs of Finchley, St Pancras, Wembley, Wood Green, Southgate, Crayford, Old Kent Road, Mill Hill, Ilford, Hendon, Chigwell. The RAF bomb Berlin for the second time, killing 8 or 10 civilians.

Again this is something the Germans started. They were the first to bomb enemy cities, months before the first bomb was dropped on Germany. They bombed Poland, Norway, France, Belgium and the Netherlands before any bombs were dropped on Germany. They bombed London on 5 days/nights before the first bombs fell on Berlin.

 

Hop. Don't try to confuse him with FACTS LOL. It would seem that his obvious adoration for Hitler,Nazis and things German has somewhat blinded him to them LOL .

 

just because I'm interested/fascinated by them doesn't mean I am a Nazi or that I agree with their policies.

 

Getting back to the thread subject...

...wasn't there an all-Polish Voulnteer Pilot group in service with the RAF during the battle of Britain? I have read about the Polish parachute brigade, but that was in the army during operation Market Garden in '44.

 

The first squadrons were 300 and 301 bomber squadrons and 302 and 303 fighter squadrons. The fighter squadrons, flying the Hawker Hurricane, first saw action in the third phase of the Battle of Britain in late August 1940, quickly becoming highly effective. Polish flying skills were well-developed from the Invasion of Poland and the pilots were regarded as fearless and sometimes bordered on reckless. Their success rates were very high in comparison to the less-experienced British Commonwealth pilots.[1] 303 squadron became the most efficient RAF fighter unit at that time[2]. Many Polish pilots also flew in other RAF squadrons. In the following years, further Polish squadrons were created: 304 (bomber, then Coastal Command), 305 (bomber), 306 (fighter), 307 (night fighter), 308 (fighter), 309 (reconnaissance, then fighter), 315 (fighter), 316 (fighter), 317 (fighter), 318 (fighter-reconnaissance) and 663 (air observation/artillery spotting). The fighter squadrons initially flew Hurricanes, then Supermarine Spitfires, and eventually some were equipped with P-51 Mustangs. Night fighters used by 307 were the Boulton-Paul Defiant, Bristol Beaufighter and the de Havilland Mosquito. The bomber squadrons were initially equipped with Fairey Battles and Vickers Wellingtons, then Avro Lancasters (300 sqn), Handley Page Halifaxs and Consolidated B-24 Liberators (301 sqn) and de Havilland Mosquitos and B-25 Mitchells (305 sqn). 663 flew Auster AOP Mk Vs.

Polish Air Forces in France and Great Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

To you Hop

But in the terms of Britain Vs Germany and bombing cities first didnt' the germans 'accidently' bombed civillian populace in Croyden and the outskirts of london making the british retaliate on Berlin targeting german civiliians? If so dosn't that mean that the british intentionally targeted german civillians first?

 

No, the raid on Berlin didn't target civilians. It was aimed mainly at Tempelhof airfield, the Siemens factory in Siemenstadt, and various other small military targets in and around Berlin. The bombers were even under orders that if they couldn't find their exact target, they were to bring their bombs back, or jettison them at sea.

To be fair to the Germans, at this point they too were still trying to hit military targets in Britain. Both sides thought their bombing was more accurate than it was. Both sides knew the enemy bombing was incredibly inaccurate. That gave both sides the impression the enemy were deliberately bombing civilians.

Until 7th September both sides were doing the same thing, bombing military targets with relatively small numbers of aircraft. What changed is that the Germans then started saturation bombing London, then other British cities. They adopted widespread use of parachute mines and incendiary cannisters, neither of which could be aimed, and deployed them over British cities en masse.

The first time the British adopted similar bombing techniques was against Mannheim on 15/16 December 1940. The raid was authorised as a reprisal for Coventry. It was the first British area attack of the war, and about 120 bombers took part. By then, the Luftwaffe had killed about 20,000 British civilians.

 

so you are saying that without any shadow of a doubt that the germans not only started the bombings on civillians not only in the BoB but prior as well, and the british went without ever intentionally bombing civillians for reprisals until the Mannheim raid. That just makes all germans sound like barbarians very progandist if you ask me.

 

It's true, though.

You only have to look at each escalation in bombing to see that the RAF responded to German action.

Only bombs on warships at sea at the start of the war.

First attack on German soil following attack on the Orkneys that killed a British civilian (James Isbister). The British raid was a mirror image of the German attack. The Germans bombed naval facilities in the Orkney islands, the British bombed a seaplane base on the island of Sylt.

First attacks on Germany proper on the 10/11 May, following German bombing of France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

First attacks east of the Rhine on the night of 15/16 May, following the attack on Rotterdam.

First attack on Berlin on 25/26 August, following repeated minor attacks on London.

First area attack on 15/16 December, ordered as a response to Coventry.

Every escalation in bombing until that point was carried out by Germany. Britain went on in 1942 to escalate bombing further, with 1000 bomber raids on Germany. But the RAF merely increased the scale of bombing, using methods and tactics the Germans had pioneered.

Well, the people in charge of German bombing were Goering and Hitler. They decided what was bombed, and how. And yes, I would describe them as barbarians.

 

Fair enough with Goering and hitler being barbarians I can see that, and Okay you win this disccusion lol

 

As is the case on both sides. I believe there was some attempts at stopping the bombings of Germans cities since most were void of military targets but bomber Harris took Churchill's speech of 'bombing every German city' literally. In war, seems like there are no rules

 

Which is funny when the Germans seeemed to not have any problems with Warsaw and Rotterdamn previously and even Belgarde in 1941.

 

Exactly

 

I know the Germans, by 1943, were anxious to put a stop to the bombing. But as they were on the receiving end by then, that's only natural. As JM Speight said:

But I'm not aware the allies gave any serious consideration to stopping the bombing until the last few months of the war, when it was winding down anyway.

The USAAF defined a military target as:

Richard G Davis, one of the USAF's official historians, notes:

That might sound cynical, but it's largely true. Cities are centres of manufacturing, distribution and communications. By 1943 Germany was switching as much as possible to a war economy. Cities are concentrations tens or hundreds of thousands of people. None of them could simply opt out of the war effort.

Nowhere in Germany was there a city of tens of thousands all comfortably going about pre war business. All were churning out material for the war effort as fast as possible. If a city was too small to have a tank or aircraft factory, it still made sub assemblies that went in to those tanks and aircraft and rifles and guns.