Beaching the Yamato questions

My bad.....strategy is my strong point, rather than equipment....

Yes, pronunciation is Hee-ay....for the record Mutsu is Moot-Seh, and all the others are as they appear.

I always thought Nagato and Mutsu were reconditioned vessels of the Fuso class, rather than a seperate class of their own. Of course, when reconditioned, they become a seperate class, yes? Or were they laid down as entirely seperate vessels.

Now that we've finished picking nits, back to Yamato...

Apart from amount of fuel taken on, is there any other evidence to suggest that Yamato was NOT on a suicide mission? Operational orders for Sho? Draft copies of instructions to Yamato's Captain? Anything?
Historians have been preaching this aspect of Yamato for some time now, and apart from differences in the fuel record, nobody I'm aware of has come up with anything to the contrary. The fact that Yamato's hold was filled with explosives must argue for a suicide mission.
Another counter argument to the suicide ploy is the very unlikelyhood of using such a big vessel as a ramming device. Yamato was manoeuvreable, but not THAT manuoevreable that she could run down vessels of less than half her size and three times her turning circle.
Further, it seems to me that the 'beach for a land battery' order was simply an expediant of last resort. After her sister ship's swift demise, I don't think this order was seriously contemplated. It may have been official window dressing to demonstrate 'offensive spirit' and willingness to scarifice the IJN's vessels in the same general way that the Army was sacrificing itself. These orders were written by desk bound administrators with no experience. Yamato would not be the first fighting unit (or the last) to be sent on a mission that she had little or no way of carrying to completion.
Anyhow, what is the evidence for the suicide concept? It cannot be just speculation as so many historians have come to similar conclusions....or are they all misguided?

 

HeA (A sounding exactly like the letter).

I watched way to much Yu Yu Hakusho with english subtitles.


@ Volga Boatman,
There are a lot of ships in the Yamato clip, several are US battleships. The IJN Takao class heavy cruiser puts in an appearance at 00:17, the IJN heavy cruiser Chikuma is shown at 2:34. At 2:53, when talking about the huge fireball a short clip of a burning US carrier is used. Heck, at 2:15 they show the main guns of the USS Nevada firing.

The only time you actually see the Yamato is the two still shots at 00:52-00:57.

 

None what so ever. From the top on down to the ship commanders, it was understood that the Yamato would not be coming back. The order from Admiral Toyoda to Vice Admiral Ito read as follows

I don't quite understand your comment about the Yamato's hold being filled with explosives. What else would you put in a battleship's magazines but ammunition and powder. Given that the main guns only fired a few rounds during the battle, that would leave an awful lot of ammunition and powder left over.

Regarding actually ramming another ship, I can say I have never read that the Yamato was intending to ram other ships. That would be taking the idea of the Yamato's mission a step to far. Besides, any ramming that would succeed would likely heavily damage the bow, imparing her speed and maneuverabilty, as well as causing unneccesary flooding in the bow area.

During the initial planning stages of Ten-Ichi, the Yamato was intended to be used as bait, like Ozawa's carriers at Leyte Gulf. As the operation was being explained to Emperor Hirohito, who was still under the impression that Japan had a navy, the Emperor asked "But where's the navy? Have we no ships?" Once word of these questions reached those planning the naval part of Ten-Ichi, the Yamato's part was changed. She would no longer be bait to draw American forces, but a participating member of the operation. The "beach for a land battery" was serious enough for the more fanatical members of Admiral Toyoda's staff. Although the more knowledgeable and realistic staff officers knew it would be a miracle if the Yamato ever got within sight of Okinawa. The orders were, IIRC, written up by Captain Shiganori Kami, Toyoda's Chief of Operations, and probably the most "fanatical" member of the Japanese Navy high command. He was fiercely militaristic and believed that the Japanese spirit of Bushido would carry the Yamato through. To him, using the Yamato as a land battery was not merely "window dressing."

There is much more evidence within Russell Spurr's "A Glorious Way to Die" You can either find a copy to read for yourself or go here: A Glorious Way to Die: The Kamikaze ... - Google Books

If you have anymore questions, I'll be glad to try and answer them.

 

Laid down as seperate vessels. The Nagato's had 16" guns the Fuso's 14". Reconditioning is not normally considered enough to make ships into a different class. A good source on Japenese battleships is:
Japanese Battleships
other ships as well for that matter.

 

Not sure who Ronald Heiferman is, or why he finds it remarkable that magazines are loaded with explosives..... and incendiaries might suggest a higher proportion of shore bombardment projectiles, no more.

They may not have thought much beyond the feeling that the Navy had to be seen to be doing something - especially its mighty battleship with its spiritually significant name.

 

Reasoned answers all. I felt I had to clarify because the whole concept is confusing and atsounding.

Terrible send all those sailors to their deaths with nothing to show for their loss. They must have known she had little chance of achieving anything....

Yamato would have been better off for postwar scapmetal than this needless demise.

 

If I remember correctly, I saw a documentary on Discovery as a teenager that said that when Yamato was under construction, there was this curtain or something that would be closed around the hull when trains or shipments of material would arrive, lest any non authorised person see her size.

It seems to me, that maybe the Japanese should have broken their "secret" to the press after the war broke out, gave them full access to her forbodeing presence, and used that for propaganda. (Kind of like how the Germans used to parade around the Hindenburg) I mean, holy cow!!!! If I saw my country had a warship like that back then, I might think it was invincible!

But then again, when she would be sunk, Im sure that would have an adverse effect.

Too bad there is no film of her or Musashi.

 

Too bad there were not that many survivors of this sordid and ill fated sortie.

But, memories must have lingered in the minds of the Japanese. I remember watching a Japanese kids cartoon called "Battleship Yamato", (I think). It was set in space, with the Yamato drawn exactly as she appeared at sea, but as a space vessel, careening around the galaxy and firing off her massive turrets at all manner of things. Heck, if we looked hard enough we might even find an example or two on Youtube. "Yamato" was an ancient name for Japan at one stage, so national pride must have taken a beating when she sank in 1945. This cartoon series was one way of putting life back into Yamato, of showing Japanese children what she looked like in action. This time, the action was in defence of the galaxy and the human race, so the cartoon was an attempt by the producers to put Yamato back into the minds of children as something created for the forces of good.

Strange cartoon...it's a wonder i've not heard it mentioned much.

 

I have not seen the show, other than seeing clips of it on youtube.

However, if you google image search Yamato (as I have been doing for a painting I am working on), half of the images deal with Spacebattleship Yamato.



I have heard that since the ship was named Yamato, that the Japanese have a kind of deep connection with the story and or mythology of the ship. So I guess its not surprising they would make a childrens cartoon out of it. I'm glad at least the memory of the ship is kept alive one way or another. The Japansese made that move "Otoko-tachi no Yamato" in 2005 about the ship. Its not too bad, you can see it on Youtube as well.

It would be interesting to study the cultural differences in regards to the Japanese remembering the Yamato and say the Germans remembering, say the Bismarck. I might be painting with too broad a brush, but I would bet it would be a little too taboo for the Germans to honor their famous battleship as much.

 

Google or search youtube for "Star Blazers", I'm 100% sure you will find what your looking for. I used to rush home from school in the 70's to watch it. Now its out on VHS and DVD. There were 5 or 6 series + movies released in Japan, but only 3 were turned into TV series here in the US. The US version was toned down and rewritten, IIRC in most of the Japanese movies most of the main crew almost always died, where as in the US series only a few deaths occurred, also in the US, the Yamato had been renamed Argo. In Japan, there is still a large following, rumor was that they were working on a live action movie. Recent times however, the split between the two creators had tied recent version up in long term legal battles, and what little bit did make it to public release lacked the "magic" and quality of the previous titles.