Bibal. Ask me what you want.

Sorry about that, I'm just doing my part in this debate as in others... My only connection to the Bible is that I sometimes use it as a comical relief off all the serious work I have to read for university.

Somebody around here likes his son btw...

About the devotion to Mary, this is another Medieval development that Ricky will probably be very angry about indeed. It emerged in the 14th century, times when religion was becoming more of an emotional experience for many - it was also in this time that the emphasis shifted from "Jesus as wise shepherd" to "Jesus as suffering man".

 

We also have our mystics: Hassidim, various dancing sects, mystics of kaballah and the like. Very exotic and very idiotic (sha!, I didn´t say anything. They have a lot of political influence. In XXI century!!!).

Btw, Roel, SERIOUSLY, for my own security, could you not change my Member name to just "Izaak", please. I use foreign servers in order to be safer, but still....

Please.

 

I'm sorry, I can't do that. Usernames are fixed as you enter them.

 

Can't say for others but we Baptists don't make much about Mary either. She was simply the woman who gave birth to Jesus. She is often referred to in studying Jesus and God but not worshipped or anything.

Here's something I have wondered. Why are Catholic priests not allowed to get married? Also, are rabbi's held to this as well?

 

So they can give all to the church. I do believe.

 

Gents, the rabbis are strongly encouraged to get married. It is practically impossible to become one, not having married. Then, one is expected to have a lot of children- a sort of obligation to multiply the Naation - in concord with Torah´s prescription.

 

Hi Izaac...
And Hello to Arik - good to have you on board!

Now - Mary - just don't go there. Medieval Theology again. Roel is right - it annoys me. As does the 'Priest may not marry' doctrine, developed largely from the writings of Paul, who was not personally keen on women... :roll:

Now, getting back to the debate with Izaak & Arik...

First up - impressive knowledge guys. Sadly, Christianity does not really have quite the tradition of Scriptural study that Orthodox Judaism does, which is kind of a shame, really.

Now, instead of my answering specific points in a panicky way, I thought I'd take an overview.
Why did Jesus come to earth?
Not to Evangelise. Though this may shock many evangeicals, where does Jesus make conversions, where does he go to a non-believer (Goyim especially ) and convert them?
He came to reform Judaism from an institutionalised religion into a more personal contact with God. Essentially, he is a discipler. So, he preaches to crowds of Jews. He trains up a cadre of 'disciples', who will carry on his work. After all, it is pointless trying to disciple somebody who does not even believe in the same God...
Then, towards the end of his ministry, as you pointed out, he tells them to go off & preach to the nations.
Reform your house, then take care of others (Matthew 7 vs 3-5, Luke 6 vs 41-42).



Now, there is also a fairly strong case for Jews having the commission to spread the good word of heir own prior to this. Jonah, for example, was called to go and preach to Nineveh.
The events involving Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (or Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah) the furnace converted Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3 vs 28 & 29)
Interesting theory?

 

Because God did not make us robots. We can do as we wish.
So, we can choose to actually follow him and be good people, or we can choose to not follow him and be bad people ( ) or kinda follow him but add lots of bits about Crusades, etc, and (in my view) be the worst people of all.
For examples - look at the Jews in the Old testament. How many times do they need prophets, signs etc to reign them in from deviating from the true path?

Heck, find me any idea/ideal, anywhere, that cannot be perverted...

 

However many small examples you might find, Ricky, (says Arik), the main stream of Judaism is "no prozelytizing, G_d is ours and we are His in a Special Relationship. The others may do what they like; their souls are somewhere between us and animals (this is Talmud) and nothing´s going to help, anyways."

Any attempt at hijacking our G_d is ridiculous, says Talmud. Any attempt of Gentiles to imagine themselves being "Grossisrael" is pathetic.

Prophets came in order to remind people of G_d´s commandments and all forbidden things. You can call them tutors from time to time, G_d himself being a professor, too busy to give lectures Himself.

Jesus´ primary aim was to get the beating and die for the nonrepentant, sinful Jews, the secondary goal being, as you say, sort of - relaxing the idiotic corset of must and must not´s (the latter also a vehicle to lead to the primary task by offending the Establishment). At least that´s what we can deduce from Evangeliums. As a bait for people to get better was His promise to come back any time soon.

As I earlier suggested, the last passages conc. preaching other Nations seem to be later additions in order to rationalize what was actually going on.
Contrary to mainstream Judaism, the disciples of Jesus, considering themselves as good Jews, were, so to speak, almost forced into proselytizing (they were good propagandists, one must say: Jesus had a good eye for people with the right talents).

I would once again turn your attention to, maybe, the most puzzling example of Jewish prozelytizing: The Kingdom of Khazars. Even learned Jews in Cordoba didn´t know what was going on and one of them sent a letter to the King, asking: from which tribe do they come. The King answered that they were sort of descendants of one of Noah´s sons but considered themselves Jews. The Kingdom fell under pressure of "Kiev Russia" in 7th or 8th centuries. Many people believed that most Ashkenazi Jews were actually descendants of the Turkish tribe. Recent genetic tests show, however, that Ashkenazim and Sephardim have common ancestors other, and very little to do with Turks (apart form some common human genotype).
Btw: Benjamin Israel (Disraeli) was a Sephardi. I am typical Ashkenazi (even though there must have been not a little fraternization with European neighbors, I guess: just look at Arik).

 

If we are going to go into genetics, a study was commissioned by a group of orthodox Jews which resulted in the discovery that several centuries back (around 6th Century, I think, but could easily be wrong) the Jewish population intemixed with the Arab. The findings were supressed.

I don't think that proves anything at all, and I have no point to make with it, it is just an amusing story!

Back to the point...

One big question - a lot of your arguments are coming from the Talmud. Now, being a Gentile myself I have a lot of ignorance here.
What exactly is the Talmud?
Who wrote it?
When & why?
etc etc.

 

I am not a religious sort of guy. I don´t know much. Have read some parts and think it is partly racist, partly - a more tight corset on Jews to stay away from Gentiles. There are basically two Talmuds: Babylonian (the most important) and Palestinian (much less important). They contain more laws (Mishnah) and, some rabbinical philosophising on the meaning of the laws (Gemara), on relations with Gentiles, even on Jesus (very unpleasant). Written by rabbis in Mesopotamia where there was a big learning center and in Holyland (mainly Yavneh). AFAIR the babylonian was finished in 6th century and the palestinian earlier. AFAIK there is no verbatim translations (one big English was falsified in places about Goyim and Jesus). Basically, it´s a supplement to Torah, only for Jewish use and almost as holy as Torah itself. Some scholars do not even study much Torah, only Talmud.

Conc. mixing with Arabs: of course - but they have some genetic markers which they say are specific of Jewish people. I am not a genetician. I don´t now more than you.

 

So the Talmud is, essentially, a book of theological doctrine.
The Babylonian & Palestinian Rabbis' interpretation of the Torah?

 

Yes. You can say that way. It is both a crazy proliferations of musts and must nots as well as a compendium of explanations why. The whole thing is positively ridiculous, although not without some internal sense.... The very direction Jesus was against. As if He predicted that development. The religion has become robotization of human behavior, every aspect of which must be performed in a proscribed way.

Plus the positively racist content and contempt for Jesus and Christianity. The Authorities of Judaism know precisely qhat the problem is here, and don´t allow the true text to reach non-Jews. "Jesus was a bastard of one Miriam and a Roman soldier named Panthera" sort of thing.

I hope you are satisfied. And don´t wonder why it is so difficult to find a course of Hebrew for general public (my impression is, that it is rather impossible - maybe I´m wrong as always).

 

Not really. A little saddened to be honest, but not satisfied or smug.

well, actually, there is a Christian-run 'Pardes' centre near me that runs a course in Hebrew...

 

That´s good, but it still needs a lot of work and not everyone is strongwilled enough to make it, so as to understand old religious literature. Besides, people who do decide to study, tend to have a positive attitude to the subject, to start with...

I was asking, whether you were satisfied with my answers, not the content. Do you think I´m a jerk????

 

No, not at all!
I just misinterpreted your question (probably a linguistic quirk - or maybe I'm a jerk!...)
Sorry if I caused offence.

Yes, your answers are (and always have been) completely satisfactory in terms of content (though whether I have agreed with some of your opinions on Soviet invasions of Britain... ).

You do seem to have a very harsh view of the Talmud...

 

Sure you caused offence. AGAIN: :angry:

Sure I am harsh about it. Iam not a racist. Nor is my son. But these scriptures are not nice at all. I would say, they are also deletorious for the Jews themselves. You can´t expect any reasonable peace (and forget all about - just) in the M. East. The religious parties are not large but very important and incredibly generously financed form USA (not Establishment ).
With this sort of attitude and dreams about Grossisrael, you can´t expect anything good, imho.

 

Bible teacher emerges from the shadows

AHA! now you have tripped the wire on the claymore. Kriegs has noticed your theological ramblings. I was told basically to go shut the hatch of my Gospel tank and put a cork in it. Noww I have all the Ammo I need, heh heh heh muaaahhhh. first of all I have 5 years of College level Bible Study plus some seminary. I preached and do preach, I am a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist, which for the uninitiated is a system of Bible study that reconciles theAPPARENT CONTRADICTIONS OF THE nEW tESTAMENT golly feelas hasnt anyone ever read Pauls epistles????? there is the marching orders of the Church of this Dispensation, we call this the Grace Message or the Grace Movement, (ie. those who propagate this teaching,) I also hold out to you C.R. Stams ,things that differ. THE BOOK that took me off the road to hell and made me understand the Bible as a whole, with that and the Schoffiled Reference Bible I got unconfused. almost all Christian denominations mistakenly follow Peter and start the Church at Pentecost. this fundamental mistake is the real cause of all the arguements between Christian bodies. the Church began with the Conversion of Saul(Paul) on the Road to damascus i dont need to buy you stams book just read Galations chapter 2,Ephesians Ch 3 , and Romans 11- if you do this with a careful heart and obey 2 Timothy2:15 you will get it right. Der kriegspfarrer (war priest)

 

to mr Stern

I am not so arrogant as to think that I can just wave my magic theological wand and convert everyone and solve all the problems, I am a Gentile but read Rabbi Milton Steinbergs Basic Judaism, and even tho I was amere stripling when I read it (15yo) i stilll remember two passages that echo your specific problem with Christianity, near as can quote"" He(Jesus) would have seemed to be the messiah who was to set things right, but conditions in the World snce his arival have never convinced Jews that he was who he claimed to be,"" and "" the split between Christianity and Judaism came in Pauls day AND LARGELY BECAUSE OF HIM."" Funny that the good Rabbi has more insight into Pauline theology than 99 % of professing Christians. the dispensation of the mystery or the dispensation of the Grace of God, that Paul talks about is like a parenthesis in Gods program for the heavens and the earth. and his progessive revelation from the Risen Christ explain the abeyance of the kingdom program and the prophetic program even Peter was perplexed by this inthe End of his epistle says"" even as our beloved brother Paul has written in all of his epistle of which some things are hard to be understood which they that are unstable twist as the do also the other scriptures to their own destruction""

 

Hebrews( Pauls? epistle to the?) i will ask if he wrote

it when i get to heaven, it doesnt really matter the ideas are from Pauls head and his revelations from the risen Christ read it and it will clarrify the change that took place during the period covered by the book of Acts look at acts while you are at it 8 chapters where Peter is the Star witness a brief mention of Paul then a breif episode with Pete, and the rest of the book all about Paul, it is a bridge a transition between the Kingdom of Heaven program where Irsael is ascendant and the dispensation of the mystery where jew and gentile are on the same level before God. NOW throw out water baptism the sign gifts and all the rest and you are under grace and not under the law hence "the Grace Message"" and that sentence sentences me to ostracism from my hitherto patient Christiam friends, ps you can have a liquid idol as well as a solid one!!! just compare Eph 4:5 with I cor 12:12-13 and you will get it. or hebrews 9:10 diverse washing is diverse Baptisms in the original Greek snark snark yes I can read it