BLOODY SUNDAY

My fault, if you wanted them numbered you only had to ask.

Question number one:
Who do YOU think live in Northern Ireland?

Question number two:
Why was Ireland partitioned?

Question number three:
When was Ireland EVER a untied country, i.e. under one Irish ruler?

Thank you.

No.9

 

I feel that a lot of views on the Bloody Sunday Incident (and the entire Northern Ireland conflict in general)are seen from the Irish perspective. How can they be considered as heroes, they commited terroist activities. They may not be on the scale of 9/11, but they still cost innocent lives.
America have a go at countries like Syria for harbouring members of the Iraqi Regime, and there they are harbouring known terroists.
It is a shame that so many lives have been lost. It is also a shame that what happened on January 30th 1972 has never been found out. But people going into protests armed does raise a few eyebrows.
But the thing is there have been recent demostrations in Iraq, and in many cases Iraqis have been killed. But why does Bloody Sunday always standout ?

 

Ok,I'll start by stating I utterly deplore terrorism and this goes for all sides involved in Northern Ireland,however,can't quite believe what I'm reading on here
Northern Ireland is part of England because land was forcibly taken off the rightful and indigenous population in the 17th century and given to soldiers who fought for England as a 'prize',a lot of settlers were protestant scots who are the ancestors of the current loyalist population.No part of Ireland has ever been English as a result of anything other than force and subjugation.Is it wrong for people to want self rule and government such as which caused the Easter Uprising in 1916 ?.
I agree the US does look at Ireland through Rose tinted spectacles,but this may be something to do with the fact that millions were killed during the Irish famine and millions more had to migrate or face starvation and death.This isn't over dramatisation guys.Obviously the vast majority of emigrants went to the USA so no doubt family historys relate all kinds of horror stories and unfortunately modern day Americans relate the current or recent past IRA with the organisation which won freedom for Ireland in 16-21,which is very unfortunate.The men of 1916 were freedom fighters and heroes who had the backing of the subjugated Catholic population,the modern IRA i believe were not supported in the means of achieving their goal by the vast majority of the Catholic popluation and it is wrong to believe so.Attacking civilians in shopping centres etc is totally and utterly wrong and most sensibly minded people recognise this.
I respectfully ask you read the history of Ireland,I defy anyone to believe what was done to the irish was and is right,and as for the argument that because Ireland wasn't united under one ruler it was o.k,I may be reading this wrong but if I am not this really,really angers me .
Have a look at various incidents where the British army have fired on civilians and other units under the British flag such as the b*stard black and tans,if you can't find any then you are just being naive or not wanting to see.
Sorry guys I feel pretty strongly on this one.

 

Nice stuff Tommy Atkins. There is no reason to say sorry, this forum is about expressing feelings and opinions. I must admit I have read little about the IRA in the early years of the 20th Century and when I find time I certainly will. I think a lot of people (British and Irish) feel strongly about the subject.

Can someone answer a question for me if its not to much trouble. What is the difference between the IRA and the Real IRA or are they just the same ? Any help would be great.

 

Thanks jet.
The Real IRA members are former members of the IRA who objected to the ceasefire agreed by the IRA in November 1997 and formed this splinter group.They are not interested at all in peaceful resolution/negotiation with other parties and want nothing less than the return of Ulster to the republic.

 

Thanx Tommy Atkins thats cleared a whole lot up

 

Tommy, I think there is no denying here that the whole situation in Ireland is rather confused and totally horrific. Neither side is innocent, but frankly Britain has as much claim to Northern Ireland as the USA does to, well, the USA (well, ok, the settelers killed the original population to a greater extent but all the same). What I am saying is that we live in a very different nation to the one that took Ireland in the first place, or formed the Blacks and Tans (filth that they were). To my mind for the last 200 years the problem has been a bunch of thuggish republicans who refused to compromise and sabotaged attempts at peace since Gladstone. Were it not for them and the moronic conservatives in the British parliament maybe the whole situation could have been solved in the 19th century.

Interesting suggestion I heared, the birth rate amongst Catholics is greater than that among Protestants. I once heared it suggested that the British government was waiting for the Catholics to outnumber the Protestants at which point there would be a vote. Make sense to anyone?

 

Stefan,I can see your viewpoint from a contemporary standpoint,but eveything I have stated has to be taken into consideration.So to argue that principle how long do you think a country has to wait after invading to claim it as theirs ? If Nazi Germany wasn't turfed out of Holland for instance,50,100 how many years down the line that country is still Holland,the people are still dutch etc and it is still their country however much they are subjugated and however much land is stolen from dutch farmers etc and given to germans.Northern Ireland was part of Ireland as one of the four provinces long before england decided to invade.
I agree the whole situation is a bloody mess and cannot and probably will not be resolved to everyones liking.Yet another part of the world British empire building has screwed up.
If you asked the average bloke in the street if he was bothered if Ulster had self rule and was not longer a part of Britain but remained in the commonwealth I bet most couldn't give a toss.Perhaps even if Ulster RETURNED to the republic.
Regards

 

Tommy, fair enough, I see where you are coming from, but as things are the majority of the population of Ulster want to be part of the UK (I think, I saw a poll a while ago but dont take my word for it). As for the 'its been ours for so long' argument, well frankly there is so much land out there that should be given back to someone or other. One other thing, correct me if I am wrong but the republic was created in 1921 right? In that case, how can Ulster be given back to the republic if it was never part of the republic? The way I see it until the population of Ulster want to be part of the republic the only way the land can be given back to the 'Irish' (assuming the bulk of the population of Ulster are actually the settelers you talked about and hense have no real claim to the land) would be to kick the inhabitants off their land right? Seems kinda like Zimbabwe to me.

 

Atkins,(or is that O'Atkins?) for someone who claims to quote ‘history’, so clearly know, or choose to understand, very little! Ireland was ALWAYS a disjointed island full of warring tribes where most tribal chiefs demanded (laughably) they be know as ‘kings’. There were stacks of ‘kings’ and they all wanted to be top dog to the extent they we happy to do deals with anyone who would help them beat some other ‘king’.

The monks and scholars went to indoctrinate Ireland with St. Patrick and had great success. So much so some of the kings got jealous and fearful and acted against their leaders. Saint Columba lead the opposition and emerge successful. So now you had the religious ‘emperors’ and the despotic tribal kings. Sadly, a thousand years down the road it begs the question ‘have things changed much’?

Clan spirit is one form of that feudalism which our great nations had to outgrow before they could arrive at their modern social and political order; Ireland, to her misfortune, could not do it in the specified time. At the time when great national unites were being consolidated, she who could have unified so easily, dallied too long with the petty quarrels of princelings and tribes.

Instead of just sitting round the table and sorting out a beneficial deal, they were too preoccupied with who the hell was going to sit where! Look, population of the whole of Ireland was well under a million then, no massive estate.

Fedlimid, King of Munster and Bishop of Cashel, [someone who wanted to have both cheeks covered], in order to try and become supreme king over the whole island, put it to fire and sword, devastating and pillaging with extreme ferocity. This is the first of the "persecutions" of Ireland (by the Irish) - a sorry precedent for the veracity of narratives to follow.

As the only central governing force in Ireland was the Church of Rome, and Pope Adrian put matters beyond question with his "Laudabiliter" in 1155.

"There is no doubt that Ireland and all the islands which have known the light of Christ, the Sun of justice, and have received the teachings of the Christian faith, belong legitimately to St. Peter and to the Holy Roman Church. Knowing that you will assist by your power the welfare of religion and the Church, we grant you the government, reserving all our ecclesiastical rights, and on condition that you pay to St. Peter for each hearth one penny a year."

King Henry II, (England and Normandy, western worlds superpower – Aquatanian wife) while in Aquatain, basically said; “What? Yeah OK then, fine by me? Hey fellers, am I missing something here?”, as Ireland was of extremely little interest to England and/or France. Now, one deposed Irish ‘king’, Dermot MacMurrough of Leinster, saw this as an opportunity for him to get back into the league. He went to Henry with a plan. Henry had no interest in Ireland but eventually sent Strongbow, one of his barons, with some men to go with MacMurrough. They landed at Waterford, met no unified resistance (because there was no such thing), and rapidly and easily ‘conquered’. A few kings fought, most sold out and some even did a deal and joined in bashing other kings. Henry decided he’d better get over there himself else Stongbow could easily end up Monarch of Ireland. He turned up in 1172 and all were invited to kiss the Royal butt, which they did.

"All the Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots of all Ireland came to the King of England at Waterford, and received him for King and Lord of Ireland; swearing fealty to him and his heirs, and the power of reigning over them for ever; and then they gave him their instruments---and after the example set them by the clergy, the aforesaid Kings and Princes of Ireland (namely the Kings of Cork, Limerick, Ossory, Meath, and Reginald of Waterford) who had been summoned by King Henry's command to appear in his presence and almost all the nobles of Ireland (except the King of Connaught) did in like manner receive Henry, King of England, for Lord and King of Ireland, and they became his men and swore fealty to him and his heirs against all men." And Roderick O'Connor, King of Connaught, did likewise in 1175. And remember, this was all started at the request of a king of Ireland acting in his own interests!!!!!!!!

In 1177, John de Courcy (Norman) invaded Ulster. (When did Columbus discover America? 1492 was it? 1177 from 1492 is……..err…..315…..hmm, let’s see, 1776 from 2003 is 227…….hmm)

[This boring you?]

Having been gifted this country he didn’t want in the first place, Henry proceeded to distribute the lands to his good ‘ole boys as was the custom in France, Normandy, Great Britain, and the whole feudal world (hence nowadays in Irish titles the name "Fitz" occurs so frequently, which shows descent from royal or princely bastards). The Irish didn’t like this and the ‘troubles’ started, and, have never ceased! However, every time someone came up with a plan of getting their collective act together, they’d start fighting among themselves as to who was going to call the shots, get to ride the grey horse, get to blow the horn, etc, etc, etc. Incredible isn’t it, you’d be very hard pushed to find any other race on this planet so utterly incapable of moving on! And yet, coming originally from the churches efforts, some of the best scholars of various times evolved? Examples litter history, leading to the conclusion there are basically two types of notable Irish. The intellectual artisan and the base zero, both reaching world class excellence in their realms. The intellectual artisan sees the futility of killing and destruction while base zero can comprehend nothing else.

Before you go imposing ‘rights of the individual’ 2003 values on this period, appreciate two IRISH tribal criteria, prior to any foreigner involvement. 1. The individual owned nothing, everything was the property of the ‘clan’ and the ‘king’s ‘ word was law. 2. Murder, except of any of the few ‘royal’ strains, was NOT an offence. Bit like cavemen really wasn’t it?

Up in the north, in 1315, a famine and an invasion by a Scottish army led by Edward Bruce (brother of Robert Bruce – you must like him, its Ozzie Don Gibson!), marked the start of the decline of the Norman colony. By 1333, the Norman territory west of the Bann was mostly lost, and the earldom consisted of five bailiwicks: Twescard (Coleraine and the Bush valley), Antrim, Carrickfergus, Blathewyc (Newtownards) and Down.

In 1476, the Lords of the Isles in Scotland were defeated by James IV and sought refuge in Antrim.

Later, Henry VIII (1500’s) sought a solution to his wife problems by establishing his own modified religion and making himself the head. Before this he was a bit of a ‘golden boy’ in Rome? Here’s why. In 1517, Martin Luther nailed his famous theses to the church door in Wittenburg, and it is said that all Germany had read them within two weeks of them being printed. Henry VIII wrote a book attacking Luther, and was given the title "Defender of the Faith" by Pope Leo X. However, in 1534, Henry had wife problems and decided to declared himself head of the Church of England instead of the Pope, so he could make his own religious rules (divorce), and in 1560, the Scottish parliament ended the authority of the Pope in Scotland. In 1541, the IRISH parliament declared Henry to be King of Ireland, but several decades were to pass before Ulster finally came under the control of the Tudor monarchy.

His new religion didn’t have much effect on the Irish faith, but he took a lot of church assets as he did all over Britain. In Ireland the church had plenty. The legal ownership question of Ireland, (Rome or Henry), didn’t last long as Pope Paul IV granted Mary Tudor (catholic) permanent sovereignty over Ireland as far as Rome was concerned. All ways it was exclusively and positively England’s – oy vay.

It must be acknowledged that a dramatic and far reaching issue took place. The United Kingdom became at war with Philip II’s Spain. So serious a threat that the Spanish armada was at the gates of England. Carved in stone is the fact that SOME Irish gave harbour to the Spanish – a move more severe than Cuba’s dealing with the Soviet’s during the cold war. And Cuba was not part of the USA!

Up north, 7 years after the Spanish Armada in 1595, Hugh O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone, and Hugh O'Donnell rose in rebellion and appealed for Spanish help. O'Neill won a victory at Yellow Ford against the small English garrison. Creating a situation where none existed, they were of course taking on (at that time) Liz I. In 1601 O'Neill and O'Donnell marched to Kinsale to meet a fleet of Spanish vessels. Liz sent her very able Lieutenant Mountjoy to deal with this. Mountjoy employed pure genius in the situation. Inland he saw a peasant rabble army of farmers, to sea the Spanish fleet. Instead of setting his men to battle order, he had them set fire to the crops? The farmers army surrendered! And the Spanish? When they came ashore expecting to meet the Irish, they met the British regulars – game over. Though in the following years the English signed a peace allowing O'Neill to retain most of his traditional territory, (generous and reasonable or what?), in 1607, Hugh O'Neill, Rory O'Donnell and Cuchonnacht Maguire disappeared off to Spain, taking some 90 leading Ulstermen with them.

Now, before you go rushing to get a picture of O’Donnell for your Hall of Fame, read this report of 1567: Sidney, Queens Lieutenants, to the Queen: "There was never a people of worse minds, for matrimony is no more regarded in effect than conjunction between unreasoning beasts. Perjury, murder, and robbery are counted allowable. . . . I cannot find that they make any conscience of sin. National heroes are desperate brutes; one of them, O'Donnell, had to his credit in 1564 the murder of 500 people of quality and 14,000 poor men.”
"In Ulster," wrote Fitzwilliam to Cecil, "all is murder, incest, and lying. Possibly there may have been traces of that religious fear so dear to Celtic mysticism; but every other notion of right or morality has disappeared.”

With these latter day Irish ‘kings’ gone, the Irish in the north went straight back to their old ways and rioted and rebelled, vying for ‘top dog’ of their little patch. Not only in the north, riots, rebellions and private vendettas among other ‘kings’ broke out throughout Ireland. Liz tackled each as they emerged and eventually restored order. Anyone with half a brain (or less) would see a bunch of loonies are not going to beat the world’s No.1 superpower. And what for? These guys were the local capo’s anyway and doing OK? In 1608, the Ulster successors, Sir Cahir O'Doherty, Sir Niall O'Donnell and Sir Donnell O'Cahan (Irishmen knighted by the Queen), were arrested for treason and imprisoned in the Tower. This meant that almost all the land in the six counties (Ulster) of Tyrconnell (Donegal), Coleraine, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Armagh and Cavan could be confiscated by the crown, and therefore available for plantation. This was not a selective punishment, the ‘Long Parliament’ in England made use of the same measure against the supporters of Charles I. AND, in Ireland the ancient Irish Brehon Custom maintained tenure of land and stock by clan, not by the individual. The more powerful the chief and his clan, the more enormous were the confiscations!

Not without good reason, Britain saw this as a ridiculous situation. The Irish governors had run riot and their successors were no better. No, the was no ‘ethnic cleansing’, instead they decided to dilute the population in these regions. The Scots had been there since 1333 anyway! The ‘plantation’ was to be carried out by "undertakers", who could only take Scottish and English tenants, and servitors who were often ex-soldiers but could take Irish tenants. About a quarter of the land was to be retained by the "deserving" Irish who had not been implicated in the rebellions. County Coleraine was ‘planted’ by London companies (including Clothworkers, Drapers and Fishmongers) and was renamed County Londonderry. The Ulster counties however, remained the poorest in Ireland. But, there’s more to this!

Monarch was now James I from Scotland. He wanted to consolidate the union of Scotland and England, but found an obstacle in his way. On the Border between the two countries there lived a fierce and warlike race, perfectly brave and loyal, but living by raids on the rich English counties over the Scottish border, making a pretext of a continuous ‘war’ between the two countries.

As James had lands to dispose of in Ulster, and tiresome subjects to get rid of, he took the Scots of the Border wholesale and planted them in Ireland with the small contingent from London. From these unwilling ‘colonists’, who were deported men rather than immigrants, are descended the Ulster Presbyterians, who form one quarter of the Irish to-day, a race faithful to the Empire, industrious and enterprising, who contrived to be prosperous in one of the poorest and most arid corners of the island, in spite of adversity and obstacles without number.

Under Charles I, Britain (all of Britain) suffered under an acute ‘us and them’ regime. This included Ireland but not particularly. Actually, while is was hard for everyone, it was less hard in Ireland - though I doubt if they care about that fact. Charles’s evil genius, Stafford, arrived in Dublin in 1635. As elsewhere taxation was crippling and much was lost under alleged ‘Royal decree’ which could be made to fit Stafford’s desires. Eventually Charles could not ignore the state of his kingdom and Stafford was recalled in order to mount the scaffold. Unfortunately, his departure left the whole structure of rule in Ireland virtually ‘headless’, without proper direction and in peril of collapse. To the great and everlasting shame of Ireland, this relaxation and breathing space was used to commit an appalling atrocity.

On October 23rd, 1641, led by the Catholic Irish gentry in and around Ulster, thousands of Scottish and English men, women and children were butchered while others died from exposure and starvation.

They took their revenge upon the colonists of James 1. They did many things, according to the order of their leader Phelim O'Neill: "Kill all Protestants, irrespective of age or sex." The rest of the island soon joined in. The priests had to send in a return of their victims every week; they reckoned about 154,000 between October, 1641, and April, 1642. Sir William Petty's calculation comes to about the same figure, as does that of a priest in Cork in 1645 exhorting to fresh slaughters: "You have already killed 150,000 enemies in these four or five years. I think more Heretic enemies have been killed; would that they had all been! It remains for you to slay all the other heretics, or expel them from the bounds of Ireland." Enthusiasm such as this did not mince methods, and the tortures were hideous, such as "boiling the hands of little children before their mothers' faces." Wholesale drowning was resorted to when they wanted to put in quick work, or else, a favourite form of torture in Ireland, the victims were left to be sucked down in those famous bogs which leave no traces. There is a long report on this matter by Sir John Temple, with forty folios of depositions, preserved in Trinity College, Dublin.

Sorry if you think this should be the other way around.

The following years were anarchic with Civil War raging in England and the arrival of a Scottish army under General Monro at Carrickfergus in 1642. Then, as with the Spanish and in 1916, while England was otherwise engaged in a struggle for survival, Ireland seized the opportunity to do its best to stab her in the back.

(more………?)


No.9

[ 04. June 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

 

Interesting topic and excellent run down, No.9.

All I have read on the subject has been about the post war situation.

But how does Dutch William of Orange fit in all this? He landed at the request of the English king/queen to kick to Catholics out, didn't he? Was quite succesful and ended up on the Enlish thrown...

 

Nice Precis 9....was that one of 9 or will there be more...Good post.

Ahh the romantacism...lets also not forget the Irish civil war...how many good old Irishmen killed by our own by our own versions of the black and tans. We made the Black and Tans look like cadets when we sorted out our own.

Back to the Real Ira and a previous question..

The Real Ira and the Provisional IRA? A difference?

The Real Ira are mostly staffed and supported by the South Armargh brigade of the former Provisional IRA, did I say former...I meant by the same guys. This group have never really associated themselves with the commands and the ways of the Townies of Belfast and Derry.

The Omagh bomb was by all accounts assembled with kit in supposedly secure Provo armaments dump, protected by the Undertaker, no not the wrestler butg British code name for the Brigades quartermaster. When the real IRA ask..It seems they are given and then critisised later.

Nothing changes.

Murphy and his South Armagh brigade are and have always been basically crooks, gangsters in the style of Chicago prohibition days. They refuse to answer to anyone, its a brave townie commander and indeed Mcginnes and Adams and their supporters have suffered for trying to install their discipline on this area and this unit. They tried and failed and accepted and accept their existance be they known as the South Armagh brigade of old or the pleasantly named Real Ira of today. The difference...? They still have access to their provo dumps...The IRA senior quartermaster supports both main and splinter group.

Their money mainly comes from tax evasion and border smuggling...big time, petrol and diesel duty being their old biggest earner rather than with the Townies protection and drug rackets.

Murphy's headquarters is a farm straggling both sides of the border and plays with the security forces on a regular basis.

As an aside, in the past we many have heared much defence of the Catholic population in the South Armagh region and thier individual problems by Clair of I resign I stay fame..Couldnt be due to the fact that her uncle is the official spokesman for the IRA in Armagh and runs a nice little pub off some of the illegal doings to bat..

As Tommy says and I agree with him, todays IRA were born of fear and need back in the days of last 4 decads of the century, we must not forget the British army went full flow into Ulster in the late 60's to mainly protect this community and were welcomed by most catholics with open arms..

The catholic population in whole of Ireland were always classes as second class citizens, the B specials of Ulster have a lot to answer for, the voting rights of catholics and protestants in the sixties was abominable, and employment rights were nothing short of ridiculous, based on ethnich and religious rights. The rest of the UK I truly believe just did not realise this was happening in thier own backyard. The peace marches were born of this and were in my own view the right thing the only thing to express one sides problems.

It all changed somewhere along the line, The present gunmen and bombers may have used the flow of the decent masses, I dont know what was going on in the background, I can only speak from family experienes, and many were bullied and coerced at that time to support the re-armament of the IRA to protect our communinties, not mine, I was travelling around with parents all over the place at the time, but my extended family were across both sides of the border, they refused to support the funding in the seventies due to the bullying and threats involved, easy to see why they had to move out of the areas they had lived in for many years, not forced out by the Britsh army or the Loyalists, although no sypmathy will be expressed by mine for the Loyalist ideals. But forced out by good catholic boys ..our own good catholic boys, and they were not alone.

The IRA of today are not the freedom fighters of old as seen and apologies to you 9 I know what you are saying and agree, but no matter what...the IRA of old were seen by the people that matter..the Irish of that time as freedom fighters, the Irish of today certainly dont see this present bunch of muredering gits as freedom fighters....

The shooting of soldeirs may have died down, the punishment beatings of our own and the forced removal of people from their families and riots are sitll undereported every day occurances still...There is no peace yet.

As for returning the North to the south, Tommy what makes you think the South want it?

Adams and Mcginnes and company have nothing in common with democratic Eire institutions, Eire is a member of the EEC and the youth of Ireland today are more interested in partying and travelling than taking up a fight for or joining with an outdated Marxist/Leninist ideology.

Ireland will be united, as Steffan says, by the vote and by the birth rate taking over the cause in a few decades. Until that happens we may not like it but a much reduced British Army will still be required to hold the peace line.

 

This has to be the most interesting, informative free-fire zone topic ever.

 

Bang on Doc, I think I have learned more from this topic than any other. Keep it coming guys.

 

I agree. There is so much to be learned from this...like you said Stefan keep them comming.

 

Dont be decieved, the so called REAL IRA, are the old IRA, they have not gone away, the provos are talking politcs but are never far from the dumps.

The Real IRA are not just the group touted by the UK press at the time of the Omagh bombing, this group were just the active mission group for that particular operation.

Slab Murphy Thomas Murphy...my own namesake would you believe....controls the Real IRA on behalf of the Provisionals, but only up to and possibly for his own financial reasons at best.

His family control the Armagh area and have been involved in some of the most gruesome killings in that area from well before the mid sixites when he ran the begginings of his smuggling empire.


His family today run the area even on a policital level, a democratic political level that shows up the Brits....On the one hand his family run local councils and serve on local boards, whilst on the other hand they authorise the killings and we all know of.

The Real IRA are a figment of the media and politicos who do not want to be seen talking to a terrorist orginisation who are still carrying their big stick and waving it around when they feel the need.

----------------
Some towers command strategic points, like the Moyry pass, used to control the natives since the plantation of Ulster in the 1600s. Others are more specific. In 1986, two towers, Golf Two Zero and Golf Three Zero, were built at a cost of millions to watch the home of the local IRA commander Thomas "Slab" Murphy, a millionaire terrorist grown rich on smuggling and extortion.Murphy, who rose to become the IRAs chief of staff, masterminded its Libyan arms importation and its British bombing campaigns from the mid-1980s right up to the Canary Wharf bombing in 1996. His home straddles the border, but every car number plate entering his farm, and every face, is recorded and logged. Even during a ceasefire, Tom Murphy is a man worth watching and, in any case, republican dissidents are strong in the area. The maroon Cavalier used by the so-called Real IRA to carry the explosives that killed 29 people in Omagh, in August 1998, was logged moving north with its deadly cargo by two other watchtowers, Golf 50 and Golf 10, near Crossmaglen. "The towers will be the last fortifications to go down.We'd lose bases first," a senior army source said.

 

Dont be decieved, the so called REAL IRA, are the old IRA, they have not gone away, the provos are talking politcs but are never far from the dumps.

The Real IRA are not just the group touted by the UK press at the time of the Omagh bombing, this group were just the active mission group for that particular operation.

Slab Murphy Thomas Murphy...my own namesake would you believe....controls the Real IRA on behalf of the Provisionals, but only up to and possibly for his own financial reasons at best.

His family control the Armagh area and have been involved in some of the most gruesome killings in that area from well before the mid sixites when he ran the begginings of his smuggling empire.


His family today run the area even on a policital level, a democratic political level that shows up the Brits....On the one hand his family run local councils and serve on local boards, whilst on the other hand they authorise the killings and we all know of.

The Real IRA are a figment of the media and politicos who do not want to be seen talking to a terrorist orginisation who are still carrying their big stick and waving it around when they feel the need.

----------------
Some towers command strategic points, like the Moyry pass, used to control the natives since the plantation of Ulster in the 1600s. Others are more specific. In 1986, two towers, Golf Two Zero and Golf Three Zero, were built at a cost of millions to watch the home of the local IRA commander Thomas "Slab" Murphy, a millionaire terrorist grown rich on smuggling and extortion.Murphy, who rose to become the IRAs chief of staff, masterminded its Libyan arms importation and its British bombing campaigns from the mid-1980s right up to the Canary Wharf bombing in 1996. His home straddles the border, but every car number plate entering his farm, and every face, is recorded and logged. Even during a ceasefire, Tom Murphy is a man worth watching and, in any case, republican dissidents are strong in the area. The maroon Cavalier used by the so-called Real IRA to carry the explosives that killed 29 people in Omagh, in August 1998, was logged moving north with its deadly cargo by two other watchtowers, Golf 50 and Golf 10, near Crossmaglen. "The towers will be the last fortifications to go down.We'd lose bases first," a senior army source said.

 

One last one from me on the present Real Ira as opposed to the Provisional peace loving IRA of old of Adams and Mcginness no doubt soon to be put foreward for a Nobel peace prize...

The recent arrest of the IRA members (supposedly dissaciated by provos) testing new home made morter rounds and training FARC terrorists in Columbia...The arrested Irishmen are all known members and associates in the past of Tom Slab Murphy, now a peacloving family man who seems to have full operational control of the so called Real IRA.

This I mention for the benefit of our USA cousins, as the Farc are a terrorist orginisation on your own presidents list and are engaged in combat at times with your own special forces.

These nice freedom fighters with the blarney and the 4 leaf clover have been training the Farc how to best kill our USA cousins.

And lets go back a few more years...the morter bombing of Heathrow airport in the 90's over a few monthly periods, lucky to be sure to be sure..no one killed....and all those US jets full of American passengers on the runways to be sure to be sure...

 

Spare me,I need neither the history lesson or the insults ,lets just say our views are very different.I will not post on this subject any further as it is completely pointless.If it is 'o' atkins,which incidently,it is,apparently this is a problem
Taking a break from here for a while,guys,cheers.

 

9 commando drew blood, I warned you about drawing that steak knife 9.

Tommy, no one can disagree with you on recent history and mistreatment of one side of the divide.

As to the British army firing on civilians, you dont need telling that is true in the past also.

The Raj for example, The Golden Temple in particular.

And we weren;t too easy handed before the Crater incidents blew up into open rebellion either.

The British army is not made up of jolly good chaps dressing for cricket and never has been.