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Churchill turning his back on Poland

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by Ben Dover, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Let us focus to the results of ethnic cleansing of Poland and everything will be clear, without elaborate explanations.

    Fact: There was a large German majority on territories handed over to Poland after two World wars. Now, there are almost no Germans there.

    What have Poles done to them that they have disappeared. How many Katyns equal the number of eliminated Germans? Hundreds Thousands?

    So, let me ask an opposite question: Who turned back on Germans?

    Finally, minorities have lived together for centuries in relative harmony under the German region. Chauvinistic states created by the dismemberment of German empire was the end for the minorities, a death sntence. It is a shame not to acknowledge that and regret for the injustices done over the past century.
     
  2. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    One example of a polish Katyn please. This must be easy for you when there are thousands...

    After WW2 Stalin displaced the polish population in East-Poland, and they had to move to the West. Lemberg/Lwow for example is a polish city through and through, the Curzon Line was historical nonsens.
     
  3. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Protocol of the Proceedings, August 1, 1945
    The Berlin Conference of the Three Heads of Government of the U.S.S.R., U.S.A., and U.K., which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945, came to the following conclusions:
    [...]
    XII. ORDERLY TRANSFER OF GERMAN POPULATIONS.
    The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, will have to be undertaken.
     
  4. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Is there a figure for how many 'displaced' Germans were murdered post war?
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Germanisation of the Province of Posen
    The Germanisation of the Province of Posen was a policy of the Kulturkampf measures enacted by German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, whose goal was to Germanize Polish-speaking areas in the Prussian Province of Posen by eradicating and discrimination of Polish language and culture, as well as to reduce the influence of the "ultramontanist" Roman Catholic clergy in those regions.

    Prussian deportations
    The Prussian deportations were mass expulsions of ethnic Poles (and, to a lesser extent, Jews) from Prussia in between 1885–1890. More than 30,000 Poles with Austrian or Russian citizenship were deported from the Prussian part of divided Poland to the respective Austrian and Russian parts. The deportations were carried out in an inhumane way, and were based on ethnic discrimination principles.

    Germanisation of Poles during the Partitions
    After partitioning Poland in the end of 18th century, the Kingdom of Prussia and later German Empire imposed a number of Germanisation policies and measures in the newly gained territories, aimed at limiting the Polish ethnic presence in these areas. This process continued through its various stages until the end of World War I, when most of the territories were transferred to the Second Republic of Poland, which largely limited the capacity of further Germanisation efforts of the Weimar Republic until the later Nazi occupation.

    Polish Border Strip
    In July 1917 the German supreme command under General Ludendorff, as part of the debate and planning regarding the cession of the "border strip" to Germany, specified its own designs in a memorandum. It proposed annexing a greatly enlarged "border strip" of 20,000 square kilometres, and removing the pre-existing Polish and Jewish population (numbering between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000) from a territory of 8,000 square kilometres and settling it with ethnic Germans. Poles living in Prussia, especially in the province of Posen, were to be "encouraged" by unspecified means to move into the German-ruled Kingdom of Poland.
    The German minority living in Congress Poland, which had earlier suggested the annexation of all territory up to Łódź in a letter to the German government, also supported such proposals.[6] The German government developed and agreed to these plans in March 1918, and in April gained support in the Prussian House of Lords; the plans for this were debated and developed across a wide spectrum of political parties and interested groups such as political scientists, industrialists, and nationalist organisations like the Pan-German League. Parts of the plans were adopted by Nazis after the war, and implemented in the genocidal Generalplan Ost.
     
  6. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It depends on who did it:

    German evacuation from East-Central Europe near the end of World War II
    According to a recent estimate in Germany up to six million Germans may have fled or had been evacuated from the areas east of the Oder-Neisse line before the Red Army and the Soviet-controlled Polish People's Army took hold of the entire territory of postwar Poland. The West German search service was able to confirm the deaths of 86,860 civilians due to the wartime flight and evacuations from those areas.

    Germans hastily expelled on foot from Breslau by Gauleiter Karl Hanke shortly before its siege began.
    As in the evening the temperature dropped to -30C, they survival is unlikely.
    [​IMG]




    Nobody knows how many displaced Germans were murdered. More or less is certain that before the war there were 9,616,000 Germans there. Survived 7,500,000.
    The only relatively non-controversial number is the about 20,000 Germans killed by the Czechs.
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Just look at the size of vast depopulated territories. Then use the figures from the previous post and make an estimate:

    9,616,000-7,500,000-20.000=2,096,000.

    Almost 2,1 million have perished for the greatness of pure ethnic state. That is how much they are ready to admit, real figures are certainly much higher. These poor people, mostly women, children and elderly were farmers and have remained without anything, overnight. That land was everything they had. At arrival to the territory that was intended to remain for Germans nobody could help them. Facilities weren't prepared, others were starving. That tragedy of German people is a cornerstone of the present time, over-sized, Poland.

    Nobody has turned back on Poland - they have got a sizable booty.

    Below is a BBC documentary "The Savage Peace" addressing the fate of ethnic Germans behind the new eastern border, in former Czechoslovakia. I couldn't have found a similar documentary dealing with much larger Holocaust of German people - in Poland. Look and try to figure out how horrible that was.

    [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8kh_X-7ojY[/media]
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Well sort of. There are a number of gaps in that period. For instance the Mongol invasions resulted in ~ a century of nonexistence of a Polish state. Then again in 1795 Poland at least as an independent country cease to exist and it's not until after WWI that it comes back into existence. Also note that the territory it controlled varied considerably over those times that it did exist. so your claim needs a bit of clarification at best.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    But Mongols never conquered Poland, although defeated her a few times.
    What you mean is so called "feudal fragmentation", it happened all around Europe during the Middle Ages.
    The defining characteristic of feudal fragmentation was an impotent and weak monarch, but countries still existed despite that.

    The 1795 partition was declared null and void first by Russia, then by Germany (after some gentle prodding from the Allies).
    Because of that the 1918 Poland was a direct continuation of the pre-1795 Poland.

    It maybe a gap or not, depending on the definition used.
     
  10. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Please, nany of the people died fighting as soldiers, most of the civilians died in bombardments (for example in Dresden), in sieges, fightings, from exposure during evacuations. Over 50,000 drowned in Vistula Lagoon, 100,000 died fleeing Breslau.The numbers add very fast.
    Not Poles or Russians killed them, but the Nazis who ordered the criminally inept evacuations.

    But anyway, as it is said:

    The people have appointed kings without my consent,
    and princes without my knowledge.
    They have planted the wind
    and will harvest the whirlwind.
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Are you suggesting that German population from the present day Poland has committed a mass suicide? 2,100,000 people died of unknown reason just to make enough room for Poles?

    What do you think we are?
     
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Well if you had to ask, I think you are a man who knows less than nothing about WW2...

    Specifically, that the 2.1 million lived on territories belonging today to Poland, Czechia, Russia and even Lithuania.
    Well, I suppose this one is easy, the Poles killed all their Germans, and then traveled to the other places and killed all the Germans there.

    And specifically, that about a half of that 2.1 million were men, drafted and sent to fight the war, and lots of them never returned.

    And specifically that, during the few months of 1944 the war, fought exactly on those "disputed" territories, was especially brutal.
    Only on the Soviet side they counted over million casualties - more than Britain lost in the entire six years of war. The Germans don't even know how many soldiers their lost.

    Do you understand how brutal a war must be if on a small territory, over a short period of time so many people is killed and maimed? That the civilians had nowhere to go, were all ever the battlefield, and because of that they were dying as fast as the Soviet and Germans soldiers did.

    During the short Warsaw Uprising well over 200,000 Polish civilian were killed. The sieges of Breslau, Danzing, Konigsberg, Berlin were no different.
    This how true war looks, unlike that in Western Europe fought from high flying strategic bombers by people clad in layers of bullet-proof vests. Or from behind thousands of tanks over pulverized by thousands of guns and bombers German soldiers' bodies.
    In Eastern Europe the war was real.

    Poland and Russia have millions of missing civilians too - bodies of those people were never seen, nobody saw how they died. They only thing certain is, they never were seen again.
     
  13. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Translation: They got what they deserved.

    How many Ukranians 'committed suicide' at the hands of the Pole post WW1?

    Poles were murdered for sure but then Poles did a lot of murdering themselves. One does not justify the other.
     
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    I met a lot of Poles when they all moved to the UK recently. Without exception they all had an unshakable belief the world had done them wrong and all their problems stem from the actions of others. The above is typical of the response you get when you point out they were not exactly blameless themselves.
     
    Tamino likes this.
  15. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Well, you didn't say what it was all about, so it's hard to say.

    But, as I understand it, it was about history, and you the professional lost a few discussions with ignorants. That's bad. Do something about it, improve you act, destroy them next time :)

    It was "bullet-proof vests" because sometimes you have to seriously oversimplify things for the benefit of some members of the audience. It's like baby toys with their simple shapes and bright colors. It's for their own good...
     
  16. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    No, it means that the people who violate universal moral principles don't benefit from that, but plant the seeds of their own destruction.
    It's from the Bible. As a hard-core atheist I'm ashamed I have to explain that. :)



    I don't know anything about it.
    The Poles and the Ukrainians were allies against the Soviets.
    It is true that, after the Easter Westerners regained their freedom, there were some brawls between them, because everything had to be created from scratch, including borders. When people can't reach agreement they fight, nothing to it.
    Some of the Ukrainian commanders fought together with the Poles against the Nazis in 1939.
    Thousands Ukrainians were saved by the Poles in 1945, when the British wanted send them wholesale to the USSR - for certain death.
     
  17. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    There was a program on UK TV not long back where the Children of Polish Jews went back to Poland to visit where they were born. They were made very unwelcome in the villages they visited. They were subjected to outright hostility from the Poles presently living in their old houses. It was clear they was no desire to tell them anything about what happened to any 'missing' relatives they asked about.
     
  18. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    There is yet another similar story. A friend of mine and a distant relative, born in Pomerania, Fritz, died last year. He was expulsed as a kid but had vivid memories of his childhood in distant Fatherland. Meanwhile, his family has settled predominantly at the south of Germany. He lived in Baden-Würtemberg, has established own family and has two great kids. A hard working, polite, nice, honest man. About ten years ago desire to see his own house has prevailed and he took his family to the place of his birth. He could just observe from distance a house of his birth, the place where his ancestors have built a farm with more than 100 hectares (about 250 acres) of land. "After all these years the house was the same, but ruined by the lack of maintenance, a terrible sight on once proud estate. All what my grandfathers built, they have ruined in just one generation.", he said. A sad story. He was visibly depressed with what he has seen. Despite all odds, he left behind him two honest children, well situated. Those who took his house live in ruins. Easy come, easy go.
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    And the problem is?
    He was compensated by his government. Not enough money? More than 100 hectares means he was basically a one percenter.

    Well, I actually get it, my family had large farms too, they took them away, and gave a shitty German house as compensation.
    And where the farms stood there are empty fields with absolutely nothing.
    I get it but still hate whining...
     
  20. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    So they descended with their 4K cameras, boom microphones and huge, bright vans on some simple folks demanding answers right then or else, and then complained loudly that they were hostile.
    On rather because most documentaries are scripted, (you can't get acceptable video and sound quality without it) then recreated with actors or real people, it was a story written by some scriptwriter to prove a point.

    But assuming that those people really killed their relatives, what did they expect, really?
    They visited some shitty people, descendants of those murderers, living in their shitty environment, and complained they were treated like shit?
    This was stupid and boring.

    They are ways to find the truth. There are local historians, archives, court archives with files of those sentenced shortly after the war for doing stupid things during WW2. But no, truth is unimportant, proving a point is.
    I probably would find more info using just internet than those "documentarists" with their cameras.

    The more interesting question is why those children, the rightful heirs of the owners, haven't recovered their houses, and sold them for profit. It's their money, and the people living there are to stfu, the government will compensate their losses - more or less.

    They want vengeance? No problem. For a hate crime committed during the WW2 it is mandatory maximum penalty, with no parole.
    It has been like that from 1944, to this day.
     

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