Could the Western allies have won it alone?

I'm not doubting that for a second - get the USA in a position to use its big advantages of numbers & production, and you've won.

I was just wondering how the troops/equipment would fare on the Eastern Front...

 

I would agree with you on if the us could get a foot hold. However, getting the foot hold would be the big problem. Getting the troops and armour landed safely would be the big problem. Without the British computers and until the Americans aquired the enigma machine. the wolf packs would have had a field day. Even in those days of no press intrusion even the yanks would have noticed 10,000 troops missing.

 

At full power Germany was still more than a match for an enemy two or three times it's size. The point is, if millions of German military personnel had not been wiped out in Russia and those troops and equipment been availabe to them, there is nothing the U.S.A could have done about it. It's that's simple so why is this so hard for people to understand? The U.S.A would have been NO match for the German army at it's most powerful. Nobody was and we are now talking about a German army in defense with no territory to gain. If those German troops tied down in the west and North Africa, Scandinavia etc been available in operation Barbarossa then the Soviet Union would have been crushed and would have had to sue for a peace treaty. Imagine Germany v U.S.A on a one on one basis. For all the U.S.A's wealth of man power I feel it would have been defeated no question. It was inferior to the German army both in doctrine and actual capabilities.

 

But so was the Soviet Army.

 

Yes, the Soviet Union was inferior to the German army for a long while but Germany made some crucial tactical mistakes (thanks to Hitler) and the Russian weather helped the Soviets enormously. As I already pointed out, had many German units not been stationed in the west in France, Italy, North Africa, Scandinavia etc then they might have tipped the balance if they were all in the east. As it was, Germany came pretty close to beating the Soviets both in 1941 and in 1942, or at least driving them back sufficiently enough so that Stalin would have sued for a peace treaty or some kind of cease fire.

If the advance on Moscow in late 1941 had happened just a month or two earlier then it probably would have succeeded. The fall of Moscow would have changed things greatly. Likewise Germany was fully capable of advancing in the Kursk salient as early as April 1943 (instead of July) but the spring thaw with it's mud and Hitler constantly delaying the attack put paid to that. Again, it probably would have succeeded had it taken place a couple of months earlier. So these are two crucial instances where weather and interferance from Hitler were the vital reasons why they failed.

 

Although saying that, extra German units in Russia would probably have collapsed their supply network.

Well it is. But that's not what I was asking!!!! :angry:

I just wondered if you had any thoughts on how well the American army would have performed if (in an alternative history senario) it was forced to attack Germany by taking over a sector of the Eastern Front in Russia.

P.S: sorry for taking the quote out of context...

 

Hmmmm, I think apart from the opening phase of Barbarossa when the Germans were advancing at lightening pace I don't think Germany had many supply problems. Look at how much brand new armour they managed to transfer all the way to the Kursk area, right after most of them had just been built (Tigers, Panthers, Pz IV Hs and all those other new vehicles like Nashorns, Hummels, Elefants, Brummbars etc). In 1942 and 1943 they more or less managed to get as much new equipment as was made all the way to the front lines deep inside Russia. More rear echelon supply units (such as those with nothing to do in France and Scandinavia) would have helped I would have thought.

I don't think the U.S army would have performed very well in Russia. Not at first anyway and it would have taken them a long time to come to terms with the enviroment and harsh conditions. So would the British. It took the Germans long enough. Russia wasn't the geographical cakewalk that north west Europe was (bocage apart). Russia was good tank country also and American armour would have been outgunned at long ranges.

 

Would Germany have left its eastern flank unguarded? They probably would have built a pacific wall of sorts or (not too sure about this) link up with the Japanese, relieving them of some pressure in areas such as China or India. And do remember that Japan did try to invade Russia (although they failed miserably). They might well have tried it again with Western Russia in German hands, thereby securing the East for the Germans. Were Japan in dire straits, I would think that the Germans would send aid of some sort in order to stop their chief rival from gaining a foothold in Asia and Eastern Russia.

I've got another question as well. Having secured Russian industry, along with a large slave labour pool and most of the world's oil sources, could Germany have matched the USA in industrial output?

 

Almost certainly -

except...

1) slave labour usually works slower, produces lower quality end-products, and often deliberately sabotages.
[although interestingly there were a few strikes in the American war industry during WW2!]

2) it would have taken a while to get everything straightened out, re-tolled, and churning out product.

 

Two things to bear in mind, if Britain was out of the question.

1. German manufacturing would not have been hit so hard.

2. They would have not needed as many troops in the west, also they wouldn't have lost as many in Russia.

 

One of Churchill's fnatasies was to move a British army into soutehrn Russia (through Greece and the Balkans) to help out the Soviets. Stalin was not amused. The British and U.S. troops would probably have performed as well (or badly depending on your point of view) as they did in North Africa, Itlay and NW Europe. That is, not as good as the Germasn and better than the Soviets. I would have expected the Germans would have made a special effort to trounce any Anglo-American forces in the USSR, if only to try and generate bad blood.

 

In Russia during WW2 there was only about 5 or 6 months of decent weather each year, sometimes much less than that. The winters were long and harsh and bordered my rains and mud which turned the dirt roads to quogmires. The British wouldn't have coped with this weather any better than the Americans and it would have been a hard lesson to learn, one that the Germans would have taken advantage of I'm sure.

 

The British coped with North Aftrica and the the jungles of Burma. They would have coped with Russia: even if it would have taken time.

Regards MD

 

But the Germans coped as well or maybe even better in North Africa than the British did and there were far fewer of them facing the British there. In Russia there would have been far more Germans than the British would have been used to and they wouldn't have stood a chance in my opinion. The Germans usually routed the Russians even when outnumbered two or three to one. Don't forget that the German units in Russia were better and better equiped than those in North Africa (no Waffen SS in Africa for example).

As for hot climates like Africa and Burma, it's easier to cope with than minus 40 degrees. Colder weather is much harsher than very hot weather. I don't know of hundreds of thousands who died as a result of the harsh weather in North Africa.

 

one thing i want to say about this is that i was refering to analog to the hardware and according to the info you provide , what you are refering is the binary system ,the heart of any computer

 

like to add my thoughts to this topic being fairly new.

No one seems to have mention that it was germany that declared war on the us. whos to say that had the germans defeated the russians early doors that they would have even considered war with the us. had this not happened the us wouldnt have even bothered with europe and would have focused purely on the japanese after pearl harbour as per amercian public opinion.

i dont think it was in the germans planning to eva go to war with the united states, or with the british really. i suspect having defeated the russians the germans would have tried again to negotiate a peace with britain.

The british obviously would have refused and hence stalemate. The germans would have forced the britsh army out of n africa and the middle east, britain would just have to wait for hitler to die and possibly see germany implode, or at the very least the break up of a nazi europe much like the break up of communism today.

 

Well, they only declared war on the US due to treaty obligations and sheer overconfidence.
Under those conditions there is almost no reason to suppose that they would not declare war on the US if they had beaten the USSR...

However, had Germany not declared war, yes, it would have been tricky to get the US into Europe. As Roosevelt 'wanted' to (or more correctly, saw that it was needed) I reckon he'd have managed it somehow - possibly through the alliance to Britain in the war against Japan, and the fact that Japan's ally (Germany) was fighting America's ally (Britain).

But an interesting point!

As to the European war with no USA and no USSR involvement - could Britain have hoped to hold out?
Germany would have had both a quantative & a qualitative advantage. Plus, she would be in a far better position to starve Britain into surrender (or just into peace).

Good ideas Cheeky!

 

What the Germans really need after the fall of France in 1940 was for the British say.
"Well played old chap, lets just call it quits there shall we?"
They wouldn't have needed to go down the Versailles route of a punitive peace treaty. A peace in the west where the war simply stopped would be priceless (whether the Germans realised this at the time I can't say). However like the bunch of utter, utter b***ards that we are the British refuse to read from the script and know we're beaten.

Without British involvement the Americans simply can't become involved in Europe even if the Germans do declare war to support Japan.

Returning to the original question can the west win on its own. I'd say probably not but I don't think they'd loose either. The war might peeter out with both side glaring across the English chanel at each other.

 

My whole point was that if germany had defeated russia in the summer/autumn of 1941 the usa would neva have been involved in the european conflict.

Hitler in a fit of madness only declared war on the US in the mistaken assumption that the japanese would declare war on the ussr.

Also i feel that roosevelt although sympathetic to britains situation would only have declared war on germany had the germans launched an attack on the USA. There is no way the US public and congress would have condoned a unilateral declaration of war against germany.

my other point was that Hitler was not a well man and was only a matter of time b4 he either died or was removed from power. in this situation there r no strong contenders to take his place in the nazi higherachy, thus seeing the probable disintergration of german rule in europe. without the need for US intervention invasions A bombs etc etc.

 

I think sooner or later, the US and Germany would have clashed.
Even before the american entry in the war, Roosevelt had already involved in european matters, by putting a garrison to Iceland, and by escorting british merchant ships by US navy.

It was just a question of time until US and Germany would be at war, for some naval incident reason like in WW1.

I think Hitler knew this and declared war upon the US to avoid the US declaring war upon Germany sooner or later.
So he showed the german people that he had the initiative and that the
situation was under control which would not have been the case if he was declared the war upon.

On the other hand he finally could order a real unlimited U- Boat war, without having to care about US public opinion.

This resons alongside a massive underestimation of american war potential led Hitler to declare war to the US.

That is at least my opinion.