DD Shermans

Not on D-Day, this is why the beach fortifications wire etc. had to be cleared using the likes of Bangalor torpedoes.

 

The Americans didn't believe in the need for, or shock value of, the funnies (shock and surprise were supposed to be among the main value of the DDs). Most American leaders thought the funnies were extemporized improvisations of limited use in combat, although Eisenhower and Bradley were quite impressed and it was Bradley that insisted on the use of DDs on the American beaches. The US Army apparently believed that standard engineering techniques and equipment were sufficient (including the ingenious British Bailey bridges). I've always loved the mine clearing tanks though and I cannot understand why they weren't used. In any case, the allies would have been better off with real amphibious tanks rather than improvisations, no matter how clever.

There were 50 Rangers (out of a total landing force of about 6,100) at Dieppe, 40 were assigned to No. 3 Commando, 4 to No. 4 Commando, and 6 were with the Canadians, spread among five battalions. General L. Truscott observed from shipboard.
Among the lessons of Dieppe not learned for Omaha were:
Frontal assaults against prepared positions aren't a good idea
Overly detailed and precisley timed plans won't work
Surprise is no substitute for firepower
Air power, especially in the form of heavy bombers, can't destroy (or even hit) fortified emplacments
There is no such thing as enough naval gunfire support

Dieppe and Omaha would have benefited more from longer and heavier naval fire support than from tanks on the beach.

 

Please could you ditinguish between real amphibious tanks and the DD tanks, also I understood you to say flail tanks were not used in D-Day.

 

If I may put words in Canambridge's mouth...

1) Flail tanks were not used by the Americans on D-Day

2) Tanks designed specifically to be Amphibious, rather than tanks with a canvas screen and propellors added. Although most amphibious tanks tend to be extremely unwieldy and unsuccessful as tanks...

 

Not being very knowledgeable about all the tanks in WW2 , were there any purely amphibious tanks.

 

Just found this.

I think I know why the DD Sherman was preferred.

 

:lol:

Well, there were one or two that were a touch better than that horror, but you do get the idea!

I think the Japanese had a tank with 'floatation chambers' bolted on fore and aft, which could then be ditched after the tank hits the beach. I believe the Americans flirted with something similar, but found it impractical.

 

Well then I wonder how they came to the conclusion those skirts they used were practical?

 

Because you can simply collapse canvas screens, and you have your tank, sitting there ready to fight.

You drop huge metal floatation tanks off the front & rear of your tank, and they need moving out the way before you can do anything!

(I don't know this, but it's my guess..)

 

Thanks! Even the LVT(A)4 was an improvisation created by putting an M8 GMC (M5 with a short 75mm howitzer in an open turret) turret on an LVT.

 

sounds logical, indeed. But the canvas screens turned out to be not that useful either; it caused many tanks to sink which results in no tanks on your beach at all! :-?

 

I think the only ones that sank were the ones caught in a cross wind and tried turing with the broad side to the waves.

 

DD's

Most of the British DD's landed ok on Sword. I think 13/18th Hussars lost
three, despite being launched 5,000yds. out, one of those hit by landing craft.
T he American DD's lost were launched in the wrong place and came in sideways to the waves.

 

Re: DD's

I kne the americans lost theirs due to the canvas being washed olong the long edge, but I didn't know about the others.

Tankpark do you know of any others.

 

DD's

What exactly is your question? because I only write about the facts that I know.The DD's on Sword were of the 27th.Armd.Brigade, their short lived badge(short because they were not expected to last much longer than the landing( actually dis banded as 27th. on 29.7.44,was a gold seahorse on a blue background.Brigade consisted of 13/18th.Hussars. 1st.East Riding Yeomanry andThe Staffordshire Yeomanry.
If you watch some of the Normandy film footage you will see Shermans of these regiments with the canvas screens still in place, soory, not in place as in swimming mode but still attached to tanks.
Actually have family diary recording training with these AFV,s in Scotland and recording first troopers to die during training.
If I can Help with genuine questions will gladly do so but do not intend to get involved in silly arguments.

 

Re: DD's

My question was do you know of any others lost. The program on the Americans said they were blown off course because of the tides, then aimed for a landmark (building I think) and turned to wards it. This caused the longer side of the skirt to take the full force of the waves making it collapse, hence sinking.

It made (as far as I can remember) no reference to the British DD's sinking and therefore, interested in your words.

Thanks

Giles.

 

Re: DD's

I've once seen a programme on the BBC, called "D-Day, the untold story" which told us exactly this story. They went down offshore to the sunk Shermans at Omaha, so I think they're pretty right. (and so are you!)

 

british DD's

I have copy of War Diary of A.Sqd.13/18th Hussars. June44-Feb.45.
entry from June6th.at 0615 hours ordered to launch at 5,000 yds.
Only Cpl.Sweetapple's tank failed to get its"Floater" down and sank,crew were all rescued.We were well together as a Sqd. at 1000 yds. off shoreand B.Sqd. could be glimpsed on our left flank a little to our rear.At about 800 yds.severalLCTs carrying AVREs and Sherman Va'ssailed into rear of our columns, causing some damage to our numbers.The leaders touched down at 0723 hours, pretty good timing in circumstances.Sixteen tanks got their tracks on the sea bedand moved into water sufficiently shallow,deflated and tackled the beach defences. Unfortunately, of the sixteen tanks which landed, only five got clear of the beaches.
The eleven that failed to do so were for the following reasons.
Mines-2,Rammed by beaching LCTs-3,Rammed by one another-2,Hit by shellor mortar etc -3, Overtaken by the tide-1.
All these crews became waterlogged but continued to fire until tide came too high.
The three tanks that sankbesides Cpl.Sweetapple's before beaching were Capt.Denny,s hit by LCT, possibly others by LCT,enemy fire or our rockets falling short.
Missing believed drownded-5 other ranks,
Missing (believed returned to England -10 other ranks.
Missing- 5 other ranks.
Wounded -4 other ranks.

Rather a shortened version of DDay with the 13/18Hussars, but the rest of the war diary makes very interesting reading, especially the joy when they were given "2" Sherman Va's per troop, and what they did when the Americans had a spot of trouble in the Ardennes at Christmas 44.
I can assure you the Americans were NOT ignored in their plight.
Hope this is of interest and helps to answer your question.

 

Re: british DD's

Really interesting Tankpark (not sarcasm). Is it a published book or first hand written?

 

DD's

It is a handwritten booklet, some time ago the Tank Museum at Bovington started a scheme called "Calling all Tankmen", this was to record notes, audio tapes, phone calls etc. of ANYONE who had expieriences of AFV's in any form,fighting, building,regimental in fact anything to do with AFV's.This a COPY of a war diary that was found in an attic where it had lain for 40 years.it was written by Major General D B Wormald(Major) at time of DDay. Passed on to his Sqd.Clerk who at the time was still a member of the Regimental Association.
The Diary was transcribed by volunteer Friends of the Tank Museum who belong to the typing team of the Museum.
The keeping of these diaries was strictly against regulations but many kept them ehen possible, I have a family one kept by my late uncle who also served in the "Lillywhites" 13/18Hussars, no where as detailed as the Sqd. one but full of to the family.
These are the best war records you can find, written by chaps who were there, and who are very modest ,these are the men who knew what they were up against and still fought in (Crap) Shermans until issued with new Comets about the time of the Ardennes.