decisive battle debate

No LJAd the German plan was to go east and occupy western Russia.

 

I thought we were discussing the impact of more trucks for Barbarossa

 

Which is not contradicting what I said : after the defeat of the SU,the main part of the Ostheer would go not farther than the DD line(because it would be impossible to do this,and because there would be no need for 150 divisions on the Wolga) only 50 light equipped divisions would go farther .

The same for Typhoon: it Typhoon was a success,Guderian would not go to the AA line,because he could not and because there was no need for it .

Typhoon was an ad hoc plan,based on the same assumptions/necessities of Barbarossa .

 

regarding LJAds point about Patton being stopped because the German recovered and not because of supply problems in post 338, I have an issue with that. Because in a way it did have to do with the supply problems. The closest port where they could get fuel and supplies was Antwerp which at the time was still in German hands. The only real major place where fuel and supplies was coming in was Normandy which was miles away. And on top of that, because Montgomery's Operation Marketgarden seemed so appealing because it granted victory before Christmas, the Allies decided to use the precious fuel for his plan.
In order for trucks to keep moving, you need quick access to fuel and spare parts. The Germans in Russia had a hard time accessing that because they had severely out stretched their rescources.
The Germans main objective was western Russia because that was the most industrial part of Russia/Soviet Union.

 

Exactly! The shortest distance between two points is a straight line...In the opposite direction.

 

But,the supply problems of Patton do not prove that he was stopped by supply problems :if the Germans had collapsed,the supply problems would not have stopped Patton:there would be enough supplies for a few tank batallions and an infantry brigade .

One can argue that the supply problems of Patton were caused not by Antwerp,but because Patton needed a lot of supplies,and,why did he need a lot of supplies ? Because there was a lot of fighting,because the Germans did not collaps ..

Other point :there was an other place where fuel and supplies were coming in : Marseille .

From Hyper War :

In september a total of 1,210 million ton was discharged

From Normandy : 493.000

From Cherbourg : 314000

From Brittany : 75000

From Southern France : 326000

 

There was no territorial objective for Barbarossa : the objective was to destroy the Red Army which would result in the end of the Soviet state .

 

This one is questionable : I like to see the proofs

1) that MG was claiming so much fuel

2)that Ike was taking away fuel with destination Patton,to give it to Montgomery

3)that there was a shortage of fuel in september

 

There was not a fuel shortage as in the German army, there was no efficient way to move the fuel to the front line. The French rail system was damaged and using trucks meant the law of diminishing returns. The trucks were using most of the fuel available to get what they could to the front line. The main cause of the stoppage was the Allied plan originally envisioned a gradual German retreat. Because the Germans spent so long fighting in Normandy the allies concentrated on supplying ammo, this meant there was not a stock pile of fuel. The original plan also called for a stop after taking Paris, which would have allowed time to build up supplies

 

The reason he was claiming so much fuel was because he needed the British tanks to take the bridges that the paratroopers would capture first. If you look at how fast Patton was advancing, he was managed to make it to the German border in 30 days which was too fast for the fuel to catch up to him. The tanks on MGs plan was the essential part of his operation. And since Patton had used so much of the fuel, the precious fuel they had was used for the British tanks.
Read these two articles:
Especially the first one, read the second paragraph
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=52
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/383516/george-pattons-summer-1944-victor-davis-hanson

 

Discussed in some detail here, beginning on pg.499 (2) Gasoline - "The Red Blood of War"
http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/007/7-2-1/CMH_Pub_7-2-1.pdf

 

But, but, I don't understand....

It can't be right, because... that, that would mean... LJAd is wrong?!?!?

 

(Major explosions)....














(And a few shots fired)...

 

Perhaps he does not know what POL means...

As in

pg. 124, Table 4: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Logistics2/USA-E-Logistics2-4.html
Since the figures he quoted for supplies landed do not include fuel, they have no bearing on Patton's fuel situation. Nor do they list what supplies are being landed, nor to which Army they are going to.

It's all fine and dandy to have those figures, but they are presented in only a very general context.

 

Oh admit it...Your only here for the fireworks.

 

Exactly ;-)

 

Irrelevant comments : I quoted the figures to prove that there were other places than Normandy where supplies were unloaded,that Normandy was not the only place as was claimed .

Besides,Patton needed more than fuel :he also needed ammunition,etc .

 

The first article : I have read several articles from Chen ,and I am not convinced of the seriousness of some one who is talking about 9000 elite troops of the SS Panzer Korps

The second one : I wish that the Hoover Institute would engage serious historians and not charlatans who are talking about an "authentic American genious" (Patton) and about an "American Blitzkrieg" .

The fact is that Patton claimed that he was stopped because fuel shortage,something for which there is no proof (it implies that without fuel shortage,he would be in Germany on his way to Berlin),his claim is the usual excuse from a combat general :it is the fault of the supply people/of Ike who was giving the fuel to that SOB of Montgomery ..

About Patton advancing to the German frontier in 30 days,Montgomery was advancing to the German frontier in less than 30 days .

Thus ?

Last point :how much fuel was claiming Montgomery ? And was the fuel Montgomery was claiming,influencing the operations of Patton ?

There is no proof that the choice was between MG and the Saar .

 

Yes, I agree, your comments are irrelevant, for the reasons I posted earlier.

Since Operation Dragoon's forces did not link up with Patton until the middle of September, it is highly unlikely that Patton was using Marseille to get any of his supplies.

Yes, Patton needed more than fuel. But without a breakdown of who was getting what, citing total supply numbers is meaningless.

Besides, there were others Allied units in France that were fighting the Germans...Not just Patton.

 

What you are smoking is provoking reading problems .