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Dieppe

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Brad T., Jan 25, 2003.

  1. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    The fascinating thing about Dieppe is that it was undertaken without the approval of the Chiefs of Staff in the UK. After the cancellation of Rutter Mountbatten in effect connived with some of his own staff, the Canadians (who were desperate to see action) and the RAF in order to launch the Dieppe raid. One serious consequence of this failure to observe the command structure was that the Joint Intelligence Committee was frozen out of the planning loop and was therefore unable to support the overall plan. The whole thing was a travesty from a planning and operational point of view and if Lord Louis had not been a member of the Royal family his career would have been cut quite short.

    Jumbo
     
  2. sonofacameron

    sonofacameron Member

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    Canadian Camerons casualties for Dieppe were; 82 all ranks killed in action or died of wounds, 94 returned wounded to England, 170 remained in France as wounded or Prisoners, and 173 of the original 513 answered their names when roll was called next Morning. One of the first to fall was Lt-Col Gostling, killed as he stepped ashore.
     
  3. Mahross

    Mahross Ace

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    Quite why this continues to do the rounds I am not sure. Yes Mountbatten certainly used JUBILEE as a means of gaining more power with regards to launching raids is true, he wished to be able to only have the CoS approve of raids but not approve forces assigned to it, that would be his job, but to suggest that no-one knew is wrong. There is notation in the file of VCAS regarding the decision to relaunch. It was disucssed but not minuted and the notation relates to weather or not it should be. It was agreed for security reasons that it should not be. The CoS knew it was just not recorded officially. Unfortuanatly, the key work on Dieppe, by Brian Loring Villa, has ignored this piece of evidence, mostly, I suspect to support his arguement of 'Unauthorized Action'. The truth is that it was much more to do with seeking greater powers for his position as CCO.

    Ross
     
  4. macrusk

    macrusk Proud Daughter of a Canadian WWII Veteran

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    Rarely mentioned, and even unknown to other Artillery Regiment Veterans I was with in May at Dieppe, was the prescence of Artillery at Dieppe. From my thread about the the 3LAA, http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/25...t-anti-aircraft-regiment-3laa.html#post308920, I include information about their experience. George Blackburn in his trilogy about the Canadian 4th Field Artillery Regiment includes information about the presence of a unit from that regiment. Both regiments are mentioned in Nicholson's Gunners of Canada, Vol II .

    This was the experience of the 3LAA:

    Operation “Jubilee” took place in the month of August. A force made up of Headquarters 2nd Canadian Infantry Division, 4th and 6th Canadian Infantry Brigades and detachments from other arms and services plus commandos and a party from Royal Marine Commandos, supported by the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, landed on seven beaches in the Dieppe area, France, at 0528 hours on the 19th August, 1942, after crossing the channel without loss.

    The 3rd Canadian Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment sent 10 Officers and 236 Other Ranks, who were allotted different tasks, in support of Infantry battalions. For this operation the personnel were divided into five parties. The task of the first beach party was to provide anti-aircraft protection on the beach. It was made up of 3 Officers, namely: Major C.R. Ostrander, Officer Commanding Anti-Aircraft Group, Captain P.T. Rowe, Captain Perly-Robertson, and 49 other ranks from the 16th Battery. They embarked on a Tank Landing Craft along with personnel from the Toronto Scottish Regiment on the 18th August, 1942, and proceeded to France. The night was spent in cleaning light machine guns and loading magazines, as well as instructing the light anti-aircraft personnel in the handling of hand grenades 100 round Bren magazines. By 0630 the Eastern German coastal Battery had not been taken by the Commandos. Major Ostrander was then informed that the craft would touch down in 15 minutes but it stopped one mile off-shore and was sent to a navy pool with seven others. Until 1200 hours fighting was going on in the town and in the air, with the destroyers constantly firing inland. The anti-aircraft gunners had a chance to engage a few enemy aircraft, and along with Oelikons manned by Naval personnel and Vickers machine guns manned by the Toronto Scottish, one Focke Wolfe 190 was destroyed and another damaged. At 1200 hours orders were received to return to England. This party had no casualties.

    The second party’s task was to capture an anti-aircraft gun in order to investigate a new type of gun sight that the Germans were using. This party was composed of 2 Officers and 24 Other Ranks from the 16th Battery. They embarked with the Royal Regiment of Canada, to whom they were attached. When the craft landed, the beach was strewn with bodies in and out of water and up the seawall. It was continuously swept by machine gun as well as sniper fire and the men that reached the wall were treated with hand grenades dropped from the cliff above and with mortar fire. At approximately 1100 hours the craft was ordered to return. Of this party only seven Other Ranks returned – Lieutenant F.B. Carpenter, Lieutenant J.D. McFetridge and the seventeen Other Ranks were reported missing.

    From the nominal roll of officers and Other Ranks of 3rd Canadian L.A.A. Regiment Killed or Wounded – Appendix B & C – those reported killed, wounded, and missing on 19 August 1942.

    Rank Name Casualty Remarks

    Lieutenant Frank B. Carpenter Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery (Hautot-Sur-Mer) Seine-Maritime France Grave Reference E. 75 - Son of Frank and E.S. Carpenter of Winnipeg, Manitoba

    A/BDR James Charters Presumed Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2 at Brookwood Military Cemetery; Age 22, Son of James and Isabel Charters, of Vancouver, British Columbia. His brother Ralph David also died on active service with RCAF.

    GNR J.E. Dessureault Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference G. 57

    L/BDR Lucien J. Fournier Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference E 77

    GNR Percy S. Fox Wounded

    GNR Isaac Hartlin Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Son of Mr. & Mrs. E. Hartlin of Spryfield, Halifax Co., Nova Scotia.

    GNR William J. McMullen Presumed Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Age 38, Son of Archibald adn Mary McMullen, of Benburb, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland

    A/BDR G.A. Northgraves Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated on Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Age 22; full name George Allen Northgraves; A/BDR Northgraves original unit of service 11th Anti-Aircraft Battery; joined the 16th Battery in June 1940. On September 14, 1942, his father Denton Northgraves of McConnell Road, Chilliwack, British Columbia received a cablegram informing him of his son's death.

    GNR Henry John Rowe Wounded

    SGT Mark R Rushton Wounded

    GNR Kenneth M. Stuart Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference G 4; full name Kenneth MacDonald Stuart; Age 19; Son of Cyrus and Laura Stuart, of Hall's Harbour, King's Co, Nova Scotia

    GNR Morris Robert Vick Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference E 23; age 26; Son of James Herbert and Annie Louise Vick, of Listowel, Ontario.

    From the nominal rolls, listed under Force “France”, I have presumed the following to have been captured at Dieppe, particularly as this is the description of GNR R.V. Waddy who I know was captured at Dieppe.

    Rank Name Casualty Date

    Lieutenant John D McFetridge Released POW Wounded 19 May 1945
    GNR Earl K. Davis* Released POW Wounded 21 Apr 1945
    GNR Lorne V Davis* Released POW Wounded 25 Apr 1945
    GNR Jack H. France Released POW 19 Apr 1945
    GNR Nelson E Longeuay Released POW 21 Apr 1945
    A/BDR H.A. Slader Released POW 27 May 1945
    GNR E.H. Smith Released POW Wounded 19 Apr 1945
    GNR E.A. Underwood Released POW Wounded 11 May 1945
    GNR R.V. Waddy Released POW 16 May 1945 - deceased July 1, 2004 at age 83; Legion member Cowichan, British Columbia. Please see thread "Horror Beyond Dieppe" for his story.
    GNR G.A. Williams Released POW Wounded 20 Apr 1945

    *Gunners Earl and Lorne Davis’ Service numbers are K16038 and K16037 respectively, indicating a close relationship since they must have
    enlisted at the same time)

    In many cases the additonal burial data and other information from Veterans Affairs Canada website under Canada Remembers - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial. In some cases there is a photo of the individual.

    The third party which was composed of 1 Sergeant and 6 Other Ranks from 16th Battery was on special duty with Captain Harrel of the British Intelligence Service. They did not land and returned without casualties.

    The fourth party, composed of 3 Officers, Captain G.C. Wallach, Lieutenant S.A. Bourns, Lieutenant J.R.C. Dowdell and 54 Other Ranks from the 17th Battery was under command of Lieutenant-Colonol Gosling, the Commanding Officer of the Toronto Scottish Regiment. It was allotted the task of forming 5 anti-aircraft detachments of 4 Bren guns each, which were to be inside the perimeter of the Toronto Scottish Vickers machine guns in order to protect the pavilion on the beach from aircraft attack.

    The craft arrived off the coast at 0645 hours, where it remained for six hours. Anti-aircraft protection was provided by two twenty millimetre guns manned by Naval personnel and eight Vickers light machine guns manned by the Toronto Scottish Regiment. Our personnel did not set up the Bren guns, as it was necessary to keep the ammunition for their task. At approximately 1200 hours, the craft was ordered to return to England, without having landed, as another Tank Landing Craft which had landed at their point of disembarkation had been sunk by a German Coastal Battery. No casualties were suffered by this party.

    The fifth party consisted of 1 Officer, Lieutenant J.R. Ferguson, and 51 Other Ranks from the 53rd Battery and 1 Officer, Captain Nobleston, and 51 Other Ranks from the 38th Battery. The task allotted was first to provide anti-aircraft protection for the Tank Landing Crafts and secondly to help in unloading tanks. The party was divided into two Battery groups and embarked on two Tank Landing Craft with Calgary Tank Regiment. They were given 25 Bren guns and 125,000 rounds of ammunition per craft.

    The crafts were scheduled to land at 0700 hours but did not. Throughout the morning the gunners were busily engaged in firing at enemy aircraft. At noon, they returned to England without loss.

    The remainder of the Regiment which had stayed in England were busy, too. Guns were deployed at Bognor Regis and Selsey as a precaution against enemy attacks on landing points for boats returning from Dieppe. Several Junkers 88’s and Dornier 217’s raided Bognor and Selsey area at 1600 hours. Although the gun detachments of the Regiment were made up mainly of drivers and cooks they made a creditable showing scoring nineteen hits on the enemy aircraft and shooting three down into the sea, expending in all 214 rounds of ammunition.

    On the 23rd August a large representation of all ranks attended a Memorial Service at Brookwood for those who made the supreme sacrifice at Dieppe.

    My Father was in the 16th Battery, A Troop (fortunately returned from 5 months in hospital too late to be with his troop, although it always bothered him) - and from what I have so far, so were the following from those listed above as wounded, killed, or taken prisoner: James Charters, J.E. Dessureault, Mark R. Rushton, Robert Waddy.

    Attached are photos of the graves of those from the 3LAA 16th Battery taken when we were at the Canadian Cemetery Dieppe on April 30, 2010.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Jenifer Sinclair

    Jenifer Sinclair recruit

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    Hi, I am trying to locate any surviving family of Lucian Fournier, you mention him on your page - do you have any contacts. (My mother met and married Lucian just before he left for Dieppe, like so many he never made it back. A few years later she met and married my father, sadly mum passed away in November, I have a couple of items that i would like to pass onto his family in Canada).

    Any help would be very much appreciated.
     
  6. macrusk

    macrusk Proud Daughter of a Canadian WWII Veteran

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    Hi Jennifer,

    I have sent an email to the son of a former officer (Archie Sudbury) with the 16th Battery as he was maintaining archives of a sort and had assisted with organizing the reunions of the 16th until the last one in 2009. I thought he might have something. I also emailed a couple of friends I worked with at Veterans Affairs Canada to see if they could make any suggestions for making contact. Do you have any idea where Lucian was originally from? Perhaps an advertisement in a local paper there or contacting a genealogy society in that general area might garner results. Also, place a note in the Legion Magazine regarding your search.

    Another possibility is to make a request for Lucien's military file since he has been dead for greater than 20 years so his file is not restricted by the Privacy Act and you do have a compelling reason to want it. It would possibly list a name or two for which you could search i.e. the names of his parents may be included and it is likely that Lucien's father's name would be carried down the family line.

    Good Luck and please do post here to let me know how you made out. Also I believe if you make another 4 posts you could send me a private message on the Fourm so I could give you my personal email. If I receive any further information or suggestions from the other source, I'll add it here.
     
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  7. afcbob

    afcbob recruit

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    Hi Bob Sudbury here, my Father Archie Sudbury is the last remaining officer of the 16th Battery and with him we keep the records and history of the 16th Battery and associated Battery's.

    On November 11, 2003 I had the honour to lay a wreath at the Dieppe Cemetery on behalf of the 16th Battery. I also placed crosses and poppies on each of the Battery's members who are buried there including Lucian's. He is separated from Lt. Carpenters grave by 1 grave . I will check our records to see if I can contact his family here to help you. Please contact me at rsudbury@shaw.ca, if you want a history of the 16th Battery I can send you one my father wrote.




    Best Regards
    Bob Sudbury, North Vancouver, BC, Canada
     
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  8. afcbob

    afcbob recruit

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    Jennifer, Bob Sudbury here

    talked to dad and he told me that Lucian was in his gun crew and we have him in some pictures, I can send them to you, when they were at Gatwick. Dad believes he joined them in the UK and that he was originally from Ontario or Quebec. I will check our records.

    Dad was a lucky one he was sent back to Esquimalt to officers training and missed Dieppe, his gun crew, "A" troop did participate. When dad returnd to England as an officer he trained artillery officers then he volunteered for D-Day. He landed as a special officer with army headquarters early June 6 and was used as dispatch for orders and finding where the Canadians were, up front and close. Near the end of August he rejoined 3rd LAA now 38th Battery and commanded a troop of self propelled bofor guns. He was there when they liberated Dieppe and at wars end was in Germany with the 38th. He his the only one of the Battery that actually landed June 6th, the Second Division came over in July. So he went from D-Day to wars end and we still have many of his maps, brought out at past 16th Battery Reunions.

    Plese email me so I can help you out.

    Bob Sudbury
     
  9. macrusk

    macrusk Proud Daughter of a Canadian WWII Veteran

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    Thanks, Bob for logging on here to respond! Sent you an email in reply to your's back to me.

    I still hope that you will trip over something about Dad when he was in the 16th - also in A Troop, particularly as Library and Archives Canada will not release Dad's records to me before 2016 even with an Access to Information Request! I hadn't realized that Lucien was in A troop as well.

    Is there any chance of you posting photos here? It would be nice to put a face to this young man who gave his life at Dieppe.
     
  10. Jenifer Sinclair

    Jenifer Sinclair recruit

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    Hi Bob & Michelle, just logged on to see if I had got a response!! Cant tell you how thrilled I am about this, will have a proper look at this tonight and e-mail you direct.

    thanks again.
     
  11. ForGnrSmith

    ForGnrSmith New Member

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    Hopefully Michelle, Bob and/or Jennifer you check this site on occasion.
    I've been researching to discover more about my dad's involvement with the 3rd LAA (16th LAA Battery). He was wounded and taken POW at Dieppe. Originally he had enlisted with the Grey & Simcoe Foresters in Orillia, Ontario and then transferred to the 16th LAA Bty and went overseas in August 1941 with the RCA. I'd love to find out more about the 3rd LAA Regiment and how he came to be a gunner in the 16th Battery. The info I found on this site gave me much more background. It's interesting that the role played by these gunners doesn't appear in most write ups about the raid. From what researchers of the Royal Regiment have told me the gunners were support units whose role was to take over the German guns and use them against the enemy forces.
    Based on info from this site and a couple of others he was in the second party.

    [SIZE=11pt]The second party's task was to capture an anti-aircraft gun in order to investigate a new type of gun sight that the Germans were using. This party was composed of 2 Officers and 24 Other Ranks from the 16th Battery. They embarked with the Royal Regiment of Canada, to whom they were attached. When the craft landed, the beach was strewn with bodies in and out of the water and up the seawall. It was continuously swept by machine gun as well as sniper fire and the men that reached the wall were treated with hand grenades dropped from the cliff above and with mortar fire. At approximately 1100 hours the craft was ordered to return. Of this party only seven Other Ranks returned - Lieutenant F.B. Carpenter, Lieutenant J.D. McFetridge and the seventeen Other Ranks were reported missing. My dad E.H. Smith was one of the 17.[/SIZE]


    [SIZE=9pt]From the nominal roll of officers and Other Ranks of 3rd Canadian L.A.A. Regiment Killed or Wounded – Appendix B & C – those reported killed, wounded, and missing on 19 August 1942.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Rank Name Casualty Remarks[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Lieutenant Frank B. Carpenter[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery (Hautot-Sur-Mer) Seine-Maritime France Grave Reference E. 75 - Son of Frank and E.S. Carpenter of Winnipeg, Manitoba[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A/BDR[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]James Charters[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Presumed Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2 at Brookwood Military Cemetery; Age 22, Son of James and Isabel Charters, of Vancouver, British Columbia. His brother Ralph David also died on active service with RCAF.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR J.E. Dessureault[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference G. 57[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]L/BDR[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Lucien J. Fournier[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference E 77[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Percy S. Fox[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Wounded[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Isaac Hartlin[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Son of Mr. & Mrs. E. Hartlin of Spryfield, Halifax Co., Nova Scotia.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR William J. McMullen[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Presumed Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Age 38, Son of Archibald adn Mary McMullen, of Benburb, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A/BDR[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]G.A. Northgraves[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - commemorated on Brookwood Memorial Panel 23, Column 2; Age 22; full name George Allen Northgraves; A/BDR Northgraves original unit of service 11th Anti-Aircraft Battery; joined the 16th Battery in June 1940. On September 14, 1942, his father Denton Northgraves of McConnell Road, Chilliwack, British Columbia received a cablegram informing him of his son's death.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Henry John Rowe[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Wounded[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]SGT[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Mark R Rushton[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Wounded[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Kenneth M. Stuart[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference G 4; full name Kenneth MacDonald Stuart; Age 19; Son of Cyrus and Laura Stuart, of Hall's Harbour, King's Co, Nova Scotia[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Morris Robert Vick[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Killed Prev reported missing - buried Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Grave Reference E 23; age 26; Son of James Herbert and Annie Louise Vick, of Listowel, Ontario.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]From the nominal rolls, listed under Force “France”, I have presumed the following to have been captured at[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Dieppe, particularly as this is the description of GNR R.V. Waddy who I know was captured at[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Dieppe.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Rank Name Casualty Date[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Lieutenant John D McFetridge[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]19 May 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Earl K. Davis[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]* Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]21 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Lorne V[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Davis* Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]25 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Jack H. France[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]19 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR Nelson E Longeuay[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]21 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A/BDR[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]H.A. Slader[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]27 May 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR E.H. Smith Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]19 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR E.A. Underwood[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]11 May 1945[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR R.V. Waddy[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]16 May 1945 - deceased July 1, 2004 at age 83; Legion member Cowichan, British Columbia. Please see thread "Horror Beyond Dieppe" for his story.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]GNR G.A. Williams[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]Released POW Wounded[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]20 Apr 1945[/SIZE]
     
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