Disgusting, absolutely disgusting

Well, maybe you haven't noticed, but they are enemies. I guess you think it's better for the Israelis to just let Hamas go on killing Israeli civilians whenever they feel like it?

Maybe you've forgotten, but the British didn't give up just because the Germans weren't demoralized by the bombing of their cities. They invaded Germany and crushed it, just like the Israeli's are doing to Hamas.

Perhaps women and children can't stop Hamas, but the Israeli Army can wipe them out. If you kill all the fanatics, sooner or later the Palestinians will get the message, that follwing fanatics is a dumb idea. Somethling like what happened to the Germans in WW II.

But Hell, maybe you are correct. Maybe there is no solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. In that case, the Israelis should probably just go ahead and nuke Gaza and kill'em all.

 

Sorry, my missunderstanding, I thought it was quite complicated but since it is black and white that makes everything much simpler. If you had explained earlier that all Palistinian civilians were Hamas supporters then I would never have bothered.

You also seem to have missed my point, Mussolini said that Israel were bombing Gaza to break the will of the people there to fight, it is a fairly clear fact that this doesn't work, it doesn't break peoples will to fight it simply strengthens their resolve. Clearly though the way to deal with Hamas is invade and crush it, certainly worked with the Taliban, that all calmed down nicely didn't it...

Again, yeah, clearly you can kill every fanatic, I mean wiping out an idea is a pretty easy thing to do isn't it?

Or maybe look for a solution that doesn't involve blowing the hell out of everyone that hasn't sent you a Christmas card this year?

Seriously, your last response was a bit like someone coming to fix your computer, smacking it with a hammer and going 'well, hitting it didn't work, clearly it's unfixable!'

 

Bombing of the cities was actually highly effective in Germany/Europe. You don't see the people taking up arms and acting as Partisans like you did in places like Russia and France where the Germans had not bombed the cities. All the bombing was making the German people very war weary. They were ready to give in.

And how did the war against Japan end? Oh, right, two Cities completely annihilated, with others firebombed. No invasion of Japan yet they still surrendered. The threat of destruction and total annihilation to the population.

 

That is a very tenuous link, firstly the war had been going on for quite a while and the Germans were being attacked on all sides by massive forces, they gave in because they didn't have a choice. The other thing is of course that dutch cities were bombed and they had a fairly sizable resistance movement, Stalingrad was pretty badly damaged and that didn't destroy peoples will to fight.

The reason bombing of cities was effective was because it damaged industry and diverted resources away from the front, it didn't break the will of the people but the ability of Germany to fight.

You are ignoring the shock value of the atomic bomb, the US showed that it had the power to vapourise an entire city in a second with only one bomb. You also note that when the surrender was announced by the Emperor people were devastated, their will to fight wasn't broken by any stretch of the imagination. The other thing is of course that Hamas can be fairly sure Israel will not nuke Gaza, it just ain't gonna happen.

 

It's sad, the U.N. was created in the glowing embers of WW2 to prevent such a catastrophe from happening again. However, the U.N. has become a corrupt powerless organization irrelevant in the important matters of the world. NATO, on the other hand, while not perfect is far more relevant than the U.N. and should replace the U.N. as the primary international body in the world.

In order to become a NATO member, a naton has to meet certain defense and fiduciary requirements, and I strongly feel this is why the UN is so very weak and irrelevant. I'm not saying do away with the UN, but demote them to the irrelevant status that they are-take away their "peacekeeping status" and make them aspire to be a NATO like member.

If NATO had been allowed to intervene in Isreali/Palestine relations decades ago, we wouldn't be having the problem today that we are dealing with.

 

You and my mum should have a chat about that Mussolini. The bombing being effective n'all.

Only she's likely to tell you all it did to her and her siblings was make them angry and to this day hate the German race. That is unfortunately fact.

If bombing was indeed effective then she and her siblings are not performing their part in the play as they should mate.

 

Lias, if Nato moves in to keep the peace, both sides must adhere to that. They wont move out of the way. So what happens when Israeli armour moves towards any disputed area that they say Nato is too slow to sort out. That day will surely happen.

 

Well, if things are too complicated, why bother? Just let everyone do whatever they feel like and let civilization go to Hell in a handbasket. Nobody ever said all Palestinians were Hamas supporters; if you actually went back and read the post, you would realize I said they were enemies with the Israelis. That's quite a different situation.

And no it is not clear that bombing a population won't break the will of the community to fight. It worked in Germany, and it worked in Japan. In fact, it has worked in many wars. Italy was knocked out of WW II by invasion, France gave up when less than half her territory was occupied. It just has to be combined with some reasonable alternatives for the defeated population to induce a realization that it is the best deal they can get.

Nobody said you have to wipe out an idea. All you have to do is demonstrate that it is way too costly to attain an idea. Remember Naziism? How about Japanese militarism? Or Italian fascism? Lots of fanatical ideals have been relegated to the trash heap of history through killing enough of the disciples. And no it's not easy, never is, but the alternative is to live with the evil; I suppose you think it would have been better to let Nazis continue to practice their dispicable ideals, only contained within Germany?

You can do that and welcome to it.

But what about a solution to lunatics shelling your civilians? How many years do you want to let something like that go on? How many blown up schools and hospitals are acceptable to you? You can make light of the Israelis situation because you're sitting comfortable and safe in Britain making judgments on the Israeli's decisions. It's a bit different when it's you and your neighbors losing their kids to Hamas rockets.

Was it now?

Well, I believe it's more like someone trying for years to fix a problem and having someone else reject every possible fix because it's the not the perfect solution for them. If all solutions are rejected, then maybe hitting the thing with a hammer is the only logical thing to do.

 

It would happen with the UN as well, only much sooner because the UN wouldn't have the balls to prevent an unacceptable situation such as Hamas rearming and launching rockets into Israel.

If NATO commits to keeping the peace they won't be shy about making sure both sides are disarmed. Problem is, Hamas wouldn't accept NATO as a peacekeeping force because their political power would be finished.

 

You're talking about aerial bombardment only; Mussolini is talking about aerial bombardment plus a ground invasion.

The former has only been proven effective to date in Serbia, the latter has proven effective in a number of countries including Germany, Japan, and a number of other coun tries.

 

I cant see either side accepting Nato in a fully fledged peacekeeping role. Not monitors, but peacekeepers with a full firepower commitment.

I dont think its a role Nato would like anyway.

Individual countries have in the past mouthed off about taking part in such a mission, the WEU have considered plans in the past as a paper exercise.

But Hamas, Hzbuller or a resurgent West Bank orginisation certainly wouldnt want Nato stopping any rockets or mortars or whatever.

Israel certainly would baulk at the thought of a limitaton of actions on their part.

A Nato force with German forces would be seen by some as a limiting process as such would USA forces to others.

Nato cannot be told what force levels and what forces it should be allowed to include in any package, and for this reason alone it will not happen.

I dont ever rule out a partial economical and thoroughly innapropriate mission one day. But Nato staff officers would be pulling their anoraks up over their mouths at the thought. If its to be done it has to be done with the full package Nato troops need to do the job. That means the full package necessary to face down anyone.

Nato cannot even put a full force package into Afghanistan with full agreement, so I dont hold up much hope for this area.

Although the paper tiger idea of Israel facing a fully fledged army in the field may give some a happy slappy turn on.

The body bags of Nato troops being killed either by Palestinian bombers, or errant and apologetic Isreal would soon wear thin on the publics.

 

Errr,,no...I think my mum would have been just as angry with a ground invasion at the time too....which brings up a simali...sp..,,,Would that then make my mum and her siblings terrorists..

Way to go mum...Defend liverpool at all costs.

 

Right, so the answer is to stop them from being enemies, not destroy them.

Germany kept fighting despite a devastating bombing campaign, so did the Japanese and it is debatable whether their will was broken (see earlier post). Invasion is a very different thing and keep in mind that we aren't dealing with nice lovey dovey western Europeans but religious fanatics. Not the same as France and Italy.

Where as destroying Islamic fanaticism, which has been around for over 700 years, is going to be easy to dispatch to the trash heap of history.

I imagine it's quite different when someone establishes a new country on your land as well. I imagine it's also dead easy to justify killing hundreds of nameless, faceless women and children siting nice and safe in the USA making judgements about the situation!

Hypocracy, lovely isn't it!

Right, because destroying things always makes them better and works wonders. Wow, I really wish you ruled the world.

 

And not every European country is as lovey dovey as France and Italy in ww2...

Invade here in 2009 and beat us by all means mr enemy whoever you may be.

But the consequences even today will make Iraq look like a walk in the ball park.

who ever it may be, bring lots of bags.

Fanatacism is easy, it just needs a reason to flourish. Palestinians wont ever back down I'm afraid.

More enemies are made with every death. Enemies who are already enemies are not worth counting I hear some say. That is indeed true, they are enemies at this time. A short term solution to the rockets will be found by Isreal doing what they are doing, I have no reason to think otherwise. But it will be short term.

So whats the solution, as no one actually seems to state one, including myself. I would like an immediate ceasefire to stop the killing now.

This doesnt however provide a solution in the long term. Never has.

So I can see the reasoning behind some who say well in that case lets do this for good.
But Isreal cannot defeat the Palestinians. Sorry but there it is. No matter what their military might or support. Unless they wipe them off the face of the earth.

Factions of the Palestinians espouse the same to Israel, its about time the Palestinians who espouse this, rejected this idea if they want to be considered as civilised.

Palestine is not going to be wiped off the face of the earth either not going to happen so baloney. The killing continues. But please, lets stop with the eye masks, most of us know all this already. Defending the indefensable from both sides is not worthy.

So Isreal will carry on responding to the Palestinian attacks which will surely re start at some point.

So what is the solution? The military solution is not going to happen.

Isreal wants peace and land. It cannot have both. Thats not me saying that. I'm not living there.

Palestine would like to go back to 67 borders. That now isnt going to happen.

Peace and land one or the other, both are impossible its a dream. War and land is the future and all anyone seems to be able to do is hope for a ceasefire whenever this happens.

 

You can make light of the Israelis situation because you're sitting comfortable and safe in Britain making judgments on the Israeli's decisions.

Here we go again, been here before....And why not, I seem to remember many Americans doing just that over Northern Ireland.

 

Dead wrong. Gaza is only a side show, it's a splinter. The larger part of the not-yet-extant Palestinian state is curretly located in Cisjordan, the Jordan Western Bank Occupied Territories. These are run by a different Palestinian group, Al Fatah, who look very much like they have come to an understanding with Israel.

Heck, even their late leader, one Yasser Arafat, won a Nobel Peace Prize for it.

Remeber what I wrote before: the Israeli government (Ariel Sharon) created the situation by doing exactly what the "Gazans" demanded: he pulled the Israeli settlers out of Gaza Strip! In the rucus that followed the Hotheads won after a brief Civil War with the Coolheads. So the Hotheads stayed in place and the result is what you see. The part where the Coolheads are on the upside, things are running pretty well considering.

And it would be an interesting what if if the Hotheads would not use general population housing to stockpile weapons. Some call these Human Shields, other call them Involuntary Martyrs.

So Terrorists hide behind civilians (how do you tell a Terrorist from a civilian?), the Others (not only the Israelis) have to do some Collateral Damage and obviously it's the Others who are the criminals.

Screw them!

 

No not dead wrong. Giving Arafat a nobel prize seems par for the course though these days. Another institution that seems to have got its bottom about face. Arafat and peace. Yeah right.

Gaza is today's side show. Last year it was the Lebanon. If you think the West Bank is not ever going to be a sideshow, or Jordans Palestinians never again going to tut tut or raise funds or let the idea of violence against Israel drop from their minds then that is some beleif. Join me on here at the war part 692 next year. Coming from the latest side show. The understanding is just that an understanding. Its not peace. Thats a long long way away. But still better quiet than innocents dying. If only temporary. As we ourselves see in Ireland...The problem has gone away...Yeah right....Course it has.
I'll put my goggles back on then.

 

No not dead wrong. Giving Arafat a nobel prize seems par for the course though these days. Another institution that seems to have got its bottom about face. Arafat and peace. Yeah right.

Gaza is today's side show. Last year it was the Lebanon. If you think the West Bank is not ever going to be a sideshow, or Jordans Palestinians never again going to tut tut or raise funds or let the idea of violence against Israel drop from their minds then that is some beleif. Join me on here at the war part 692 next year. Coming from the latest side show. The understanding is just that an understanding. Its not peace. Thats a long long way away. But still better quiet than innocents dying. If only temporary. As we ourselves see in Ireland...The problem has gone away...Yeah right....Course it has.
I'll put my goggles back on then.

 

You don't even understand my point.

Your Mum doesn't have anything to do with it.

Look at the complete history of WW II and compare it to what the Israelis are trying to do, not just the BoB.

 

Better and smarter men than you or I have been trying for over sixty years to stop them from being enemies, and failed. So what's your plan?

If they won't give up their animosity, then the next best thing is to allow one side of the other to impose their will on the other. We can't let this thing go on forever, because it's inflamng the world and could easily cause another major war.

A fanatic is a fanatic whether they embrace a political or theological cause. The Palestinians have nothing on the Nazis or Japanese militarists, bot of whom were quite willing to fight to the death. Are you arguing that the German and Japanese people's will to fight was not broken? because if you are, you don't have much of an historical argument.

Islam has been around for 700 years, but islamic fanaticism is a relatively recent phenomena. No one has suggested that islam needs to be destroyed, only the fascistic brand of islam. And to soleve the Israeli.Palestinian problem, only the Palestinian fanatics need to be destroyed.

Nobody in the USA created the current situation, it's the legacy of Britain's mandate to administer the area. So if any hypocacy is involved, it's your's.

I don't advocate killing hundreds of women and children, but that certainly is Hamas' choice solution. Given that, the only practical solution nis to destroy Hamas, and if that means killing a number of civilian Palestinains, then that's what has to be accepted.

Well, I'm glad you don't. Just what we need is more mushy-headed, bleeding heart nonsense from people who can't distingusih between a government out to kill as many civilians as possible and destroy an entire people, and a government trying to protect it's own people and existence. It's funny how your type always reject logical arguments in favor of rampant emotionalism.