Estonia in ww2

I read you post well enough he first time.

Your attempt to inoculate your position against the obvious fact that the thoughts, I am explaining are not mine, but that of people in the Baltic States who have sufficient reason to take that position, is noted.... and ignored.

 

According to you.

Well said!

Same goes for me.

 

Devilsadvocate

Means that according to you, the Balts believe is correct?

The Baltic Schutzmanschaft units are to be regarded as heros and freedomfighters???

In contra to you, I certainly would not voice out that opinion

Kruska

 

No, not necessarily. Just that the Balts have their reasons for their beliefs, and that yours do not necessarily trump theirs

If you are asking me for my opinion, the answer is no. If you are asking from the perspective of the Balts, the answer is obviously yes. I don't presume to lecture the Balts on what is right or wrong; do you?

What opinion? That it is not proper to consider the Baltic states citizens who honor the men who fought against the Soviets as justified?

 

Devilsadvocate

I think that you are getting desperate in your arguments - you are actually telling me;

Just that the Nazis had their reasons for their beliefs, and that mine does not necessarily trump those of the Nazis.

As for those fellows in the Schutzmanschaften - definitly NO, and it is exactly about "these" freedomfighters that we are talking about.

We are not talking about a non existing Baltic national army that liberated or fought against the Russians - but about those SS units, whose members nowadays claim to be heros and who were primarily engaged in so called anti partisan actions and rounding up and murdering Jews and anyone else who did not fit into the Nazi dogma.

Kruska

 

Think whatever you like.

Nor do I equate the Bats with the Nazis. If you do, that's fine with me, but hardly convincing.

Personally, I don't know, or care, who you are talking about. I am talking about the people from the Captive Nations who regard the men who fought against the Soviets as national heroes, and patriots. You claim they were rabid Nazis who existed only to round up and shoot Jews. The people I have talked with say that is absolutely false. So there is a basic disagreement between you and them, which I will not try to resolve. I am convinced however, they are sincere and do not like the Soviets who enslaved their country.

 

Devilsadvocate

Don't worry I do get your thoughts.

Those Germans/Austrians who after hundreds of years of German/Austrian reign were oppressed by those Poles and Chechz after 1918, are sincere in acknowledging those SS Nazi thugs who helped to liberate "their" country, and fought against them Polish and Chech Partisans, as heros and freedomfighters since they don't like the Poles and Chechz who enslaved their country after 1918 and again after 1945.

Don't twist my words, I wrote:

And you Devil.. are one of those who loves to use the word revisionist towards me

Kruska

 

Devilsadvocate

Because they are not German Nazis but "Baltic freedomfighters".

Kruska

 

That isn't the difference, the difference is they have no evidence of the activities you assert.

 

Your statements in this thread so far are utter bullsh...

http://www.waffen-ss.no/Waffen-Grenadier-Division-der-SS-Etnische-Nr-1.htm

The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organisation, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.
In April 13, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by John McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
In 2002, the Estonian government forced the removal of a monument to the division erected near the Estonian city of Pärnu. The inscription To all Estonian soldiers who died in the second war for the liberation of the fatherland and a free Europe in 1940-1945 was the cause of the controversy, as it allegedly promoted anti-Semitism.
In 2004 the monument was reopened in Lihula but shortly after removed again because of the Estonian government opposed the opening.

"Then it began a trial with it, and monument was returned to owner, Ants-Eduard Teder, a veteran of Estonian SS-Battallion "Narva". The coverment agreed that the monument was place to a museum. And then it was placed in October 2005 to Freedom fighter museum in Lagedi." ​

In 15th of October 2005 the monument was finally opened in grounds of private museum located in Lagedi near Estonian capital Tallinn. The Simon Wiesenthal Centre had provided the Estonian government with information on alleged Estonian war criminals, all former members of the 20.Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS. After investigation, the Estonian government concluded that the claims were false and rejected the centre's demands to try the veterans.On May 22, 2004, the Jerusalem Post ran a story about the plans of some Estonian individuals to build a monument to the 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS. International outrage followed, due to the criminal status of the non-conscript Waffen-SS, after the Nuremberg Trials. Russia's chief Rabbi, Berl Lazar condemned the action, stating it would breed anti-Semitism.The matter of the Estonian SS is still hotly debated.


Kruska

 

Not only the Russians my dear Devil..., but anyone who isn't a revisionist a holocaust denier and who can accept the fact of what SS Schutzmanschaften units was about.

You still don't get the meaning and differentiation between members of the Waffen SS and those of Himmlers Ordnungsdienst and Schutzmanschaften.

Changing your opinions and terms in your last post from SS to

doesn't make you look good or excuses your previous forwardings and statements in this thread.

Kruska

 

I'm not changing anything; read my original post.

And personally, I really don't care what you think I look like.

 

C'mon guys, no need to keep with the "Beating of a Dead Horse" you obviously both disagree and you wont get any further with it.

 

Devilsadvocate

That is exactly what I did, and so should you - you should re-read ALL of your postings.
Your first post;

Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in Eastern Europe
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My dear Devil..., you mentioned "vollunteers" in your first posting and not conscripts. You also mentioned ...joined the SS and not necessarily endorsed SS policies or war time actions- which you later changed to

suddenly no more mentioning of SS members?

And this thread was about honouring SS men as heros and freedomfighters and not; generaly to honor all those who fought against the Soviets.
Most Lithuanians did actually serve in the WEHRMACHT and Luftwaffe before being drafted and relegated from mid 1944 into the SS.

You also seem to forward that you wouldn't know the difference of SS Ordnungspolizei and SS Schutzstaffeln in respect to Waffen SS.

About 60,000 Balts served in SS Schutzstaffeln = WARCRIMES
About 15,000 Balts served in the Waffen SS

And are you tring to tell me that the Waffen SS was not engaged in WARCRIMES?

BTW, it was your mothers side (Lithuania) that refused only from mid 1944 to allow its conscripts to be drafted into the SS. (The reason for this is obvious, isn't it)?.- renewed reprisals by the Soviets maybe??

Neither do I, but I certainly do care about the contents of what people post.



Hello Totenkopf
(What a name - but I already told you that didn't I ?)

I honestly do not believe that discussing about warcrimes and SS is about "Beating of a Dead Horse"

Kruska

 

fine which particular baltic person are you quoting? You dont share the statement asto scum i take it so would be grateful of your findings here..or is it just personal findings..in which case your uttterances should be indeed ignored.

 

Alright boys, although neither of you have done anything wrong yet, this thread is clearly turning into a slogging match going over the same posts over and over again with neither party letting up. If you don't like the opinions of another member then discuss the issue, if at the end of that discussion you still disagree then agree to disagree, if you can't do that, then don't come back to the thread.

Lets move along now.

 

the facts and figures...intracracies of kruskas and devils arguments are beyond my knowledge base and unfortunately my interest level..baltic states ss involvement cannot be of interest to all im afraid..but even to me..two things stand out here..captive states..like insurgents for guerillas..or homicide bombers for suicide bombers..im very interested in the turn and twist of language to profess a point. what is the origin of captive states used here. Secondly..the word scum has been used in whatever unnecessary form it has been to describe russians. Does anyone contributing to this thread believe the russian soldier to be scum? Thw question needs answering. Otherwise why use the word in ANY form of its use on a forum that supposedly honours all vets with exception of proven war criminals.