EU and Democracy

WE should soon find out whethre EU Domocracy means forcing a vote again and again until the right answer or introducing the Constitution bit by bit as part of national policy.

 

We may find out that, but not in a very close future.

Yesterdays referendum in France was rather clear, and I don't see another one being held here very soon.
Now let's see if other countries than just France reject this constitution....

 

The Netherlands almost certainly will.

The government, which is hugely impopular right now because of their constant moralizing behaviour, is for; just as a sign of protest against it, people will vote against. On top of that, the campaigners against the constitution have done a much better job than those campaigning for. Another factor is that France has voted against; the feeling that we are not alone will strengthen the resolve of many to vote against (without implicit discrediting of the government).

 

furlongs are used in horse racing...

 

D##n those french. Now the Euro is going down versus the US Dollar. :angry:

 

why would they draft a constitution , if they did that wouldn't countries lose a lot of control over there countries decision making and polices , for example if france signed the constitution they would have little or no control over immigration for example , and they already have over immigration from north africa and the lower countries(albania , macedonia , etc)

 

Euro kills Dutch economy

Euro kills Dutch economy

http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/mone ... xcity.html

The euro is killing our economy, say Dutch
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (Filed: 01/06/2005)


The "boom-bust" effects of the single currency have driven the Netherlands into a severe economic downturn over the past four years, explaining the grim mood expected to cause so many Dutch voters to reject the EU constitution today.

Unemployment has jumped from 3.3pc in 2001 to an estimated 6.7pc this year, while the economy has been stuck in permanent slump after a sharp recession in 2003.

Despite the crisis, Dutch citizens remain the biggest net contributors to the EU budget, paying more than twice as much as Britons per capita.

Johan Verbruggen, head of Holland's Bureau of Economic Analysis, said the economy over-heated badly in the late 1990s, leading to a property boom and spiralling wage costs.

The Dutch central bank had no effective means of halting the boom under monetary union. Interest rates that are set by the European Central Bank for the whole eurozone were barely half Holland's 4.5pc inflation rate in the final phase of the spending spree, which invited reckless behaviour.

"The property market was really mad in the late-1990s. House prices went up at 11pc annually for nine years," he said.

"Then we had a lot of fun when the euro was very low. The Dutch economy is one of the most open in Europe, and so the exchange rate has a huge effect on us," he said.

"The result of the overheated labour market was that we lost 17pc in competitiveness against the rest of the euro area from 1997 to 2003. It's tough trying to get it back," he said.

Nout Wellink, Holland's central bank chief, admitted in a speech that "the Dutch economy has acquired a kind of boom-bust character".

The Dutch government has since imposed the one of harshest austerity packages of any OECD country in recent times, raising taxes, slashing benefits and clamping down on early retirement. Wages are in effect to be frozen for two years.

After tightening their belts to keep the deficit within the 3pc limit of the European Union's Stability and Growth Pact, the Dutch are enraged at the way France and Germany re-wrote the rules to suit themselves once they were in trouble.

Frits Bolkestein, former EU single market commissioner, told Dutch television last week that he now regretted giving up the guilder, the symbol of Dutch trading success.

Joshua Livestro, a Dutch media commentator, said that ordinary voters linked their current troubles to the failures of EU economic policy, though their main focus was on price rises resulting from euro entry at an undervalued exchange rate - a fact that was known at the time but withheld from the public.

"People are not amused at having 10pc of their savings written off," he said.

Analysts say that the Netherlands has a far stronger economy than some of the "Club Med" states such as Portugal, Greece and Spain that have also been destabilised by the effects of monetary union, and will undoubtedly weather the current crisis.

 

It's not actually a constitution. Now, long overdue, the politicians start to tell the voters that it's not actually a constitution but more of an enlarged treaty based on the rules already laid down in four previous treaties. Of course, people have been scared into extreme caution by the term "constitution", which does the whole thing no good.

 

http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/mone ... y.htmlEuro falls after magazine airs Berlin's secret doubts
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (Filed: 02/06/2005)


The euro plunged to eight-month lows yesterday after Germany's Stern magazine reported that top German officials had examined the possible collapse of the single currency at a secret meeting in Berlin.



Traders were already on edge following the rejection of the EU constitution by French and now Dutch voters, but the extreme scenario examined in the Stern report sent further tremors through the markets.

The euro closed at 1.223 against the dollar, down 9.7pc so far this year. The European Central Bank cut its 2005 growth forecast yet again from 1.6pc to 1.4pc as fresh data pointed to an industrial slowdown. The "spread" between German and Italian bonds continued to widen from a low of 0.09pc in March to 0.23pc as investors demanded a higher premium for riskier debt.

In an unprecedented attack on monetary union from a major German magazine, Stern said it was time to break the "taboo" by admitting that Germany had been gravely damaged by giving up the Deutchesmark six years ago.

Entitled "Der Euro macht uns Kaputt" - the euro is destroying us - the article called monetary union "one of the worst economic blunders made by Germany since 1945". Some 56pc of Germans now want a return of the mark, according to an accompanying poll.

Critics say the eurozone system has had the perverse effect of tightening both fiscal and monetary conditions in the midst of the downturn, driving Germany deeper into slump.

Stern, a Bertelsmann flagship, published extracts from an internal finance ministry document warning of "brutal divergences" in the eurozone's growth, credit and price levels.

The text said lower interest rates had brought "enormous" advantages to Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy as they enjoyed the windfall benefits of Germany's coveted credit rating in the form of much lower interest rates. But now higher inflation was eating into their competitiveness.

"It is not clear that these problems are going to fade away in the foreseeable future. On the contrary: the gap risks getting wider, increasing the danger of an adjustment crisis," said the document.

Alarmed by the findings, Hans Eichel, the finance minister, called a secret meeting in Berlin last Thursday, also attended by Axel Weber, the Bundesbank chief.

Joachim Fels, Morgan Stanley's eurozone economist, briefed the group on the enveloping crisis in southern Europe, notably Italy, warning of a "meltdown" risk that could break up the euro-zone.

He told them high-debt states were unlikely to leave the euro-zone by choice since the price would be too high. But a hard-core led by Germany might reap some benefit from breaking away. Mr Fels said yesterday that Europe was now "on a slippery slope toward disintegration and instability. The risk of a euro wreckage has risen significantly.''

Stern advised readers to look carefully at their euro bank notes: the number series on German issue notes start with the letter "X", while Italian notes start with "S".

The finance ministry admitted that the Berlin meeting had taken place but tried to play down the implications. "Mr Eichel believes that monetary union is a success," said a spokesman.

The document suggested that Germany's slump of recent years was directly linked to the euro, which had fatally distorted "real" interest rates (after inflation) across the eurozone.

 

the problem with the eu is that the richer northern european members are
being hamstrung by the poorer member states who are the ones that benefit at the expense of the bigger more affluent countries.

i think these nations should abandon the eu and set up a northern european confederation along a similar line and drop the baggage. this would included

uk
germany
austria
scandanivian countries
denmark
holland
belgium
ireland
luxembourg
france

 

Ireland?

Coming back on a previous strand in this topic, the Dutch vote for the European Constitution resulted in a cinvinced "No" (62%).

 

yes ireland i put them in because they have really tried hard to give something back and they arnt know where near as corrupt as lots of other nations!!

to be honest i was more tempted to leave france out than ireland.

 

Might I ask why the highly industrialized nation of France would be left out?

As to Ireland: I'm sure many of the other countries that are not part of your "Northern European Confederation" have tried really hard to form a functioning part of the EU yet you wouldn't include them?

 

note: i didnt leave france out?

ireland has a booming economy low unemployment etc etc they have come along way in the last 10-15 yrs they are the biggest success story that has come out of the EU.

france is very good at playing the system and bending the rules to suit its own aims and is very preoccupied by its perceived postion within the EU.
when other countries do the same france always cries foul!!

I just think the northern european nations have a much more forward thinking outlook whilst those in the south and east are trying to pull in the other direction.

why do you think the peoples of the richer nations are dead set against the massive expansion of the EU??

 

I suppose that "scandinavian countries" also includes Norway?

Sorry mate, we're too rich. We can't allow ourselves to be hamstrung by poorer countries like Britain.

 

Eh? My misses is in Norway as we speak, and apparently stuff is cheaper than in Britain...

 

If you want me to believe that, you got to give at least 1 example.

 

Just for the record : I was just joking. Just a well meaning kick in cheeky monkey's butt.

Regarding prices, I guess that depends on what you mean by stuff. In my experience almost everything is about twice as costly in Norway except electronics for some strange reason. I was rather surprised to see my cellphone at Woolworth's sold at a much higher price than I had to pay for it in Norway.

 

maybe not crying foul but bending the rules - the recent issue with the Stability Pact springs to mind although you would also have to lump in Germany here as well - the way things are going it looks like no-one else will have to bend the rules and have France cry foul as the Euro is going down fast.

:smok: :smok:

 

Yes, that is true, but Germany did the same and no one here cried foul....